FMs - Ghost/Perfect Thief
Results (Part 5)
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1. 30th Oct 2003, 04:26 #76
Peter_Smith
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Dafydd,
I don't know where ammendment #4 came from. Maybe it was in another post somewhere and never got copied to the post that actually listed the rules. Anyway, I think this serves only to clarify the situation with gas arrows, another after-the-fact ruling. Not using the BJ in normal circumstances is pretty obvious and is covered by the no damage rule. Regardless of what this ammendment says, the no damage / no BJ rule does not apply when there is an explicit objective to kill. This is another unwritten ruling that is reflected in the red comments of the first reference.
In short: kill him and be happy about it.
I agree with Vanguard that questions like this should be made in another thread.
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2. 30th Oct 2003, 06:44 #77
dafydd
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Don't I know it!
[Vanguard]
Some authors change the AI vocalizations so much that sometimes you cannot distinguish between a 1st and 2nd level alert for an AI.
I just ran into this very thing: in Two Fathers, the maid upstairs in the secret area has a level-one alert vocalization that consists of an ear-piercing shriek! But she doesn't interrupt her steady walking, doesn't go into search mode, and doesn't flee -- all of which she does if you get her to a level-two alert.
The shriek is just her way of saying "thought I saw sumpfin' dere... musta been rats!"
Dafydd
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3. 31st Oct 2003, 22:26 #78
dafydd
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The Wedding of Sir Andre
FM: The Wedding of Sir Andre (a.k.a. Sir Andre's Hochzeit)
File: hockzeit.zip
Play mode: Ghost (success)
Play mode: Perfect Thief (fail - so what else is new?)
Time: 5 hr 08 min
Loot: 7085 of 8100
Pockets picked: 6 of 14
Backstabs: 0 Knockouts: 0
Damage dealt: 0 Taken: 0 Healing: 0
Killed: 0
Secrets: 0 of 0
(There are three "secrets" that don't count as such but should; I got all three of those: switches in two rooms that reveal loot or a key and a frobbable gargoyle in a garden that slides a grave aside to reveal loot.)
Comments:
Nothing to say. Routine manor mission, nothing standout or worth discussing. Nothing really tricky... the first (ground) floor is all tile; that's about it.
Dafydd
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4. 2nd Nov 2003, 04:59 #79
Vanguard
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Gerrard's Temple
FM: Gerrard's Temple
File: gerrards_temple_m.zip
Play mode: Ghost (success)
Time: 1 hr 32 min
Loot: 4518 or 4700
Pockets picked: 9 of 10 (all)
Backstabs: 0 Knockouts: 0
Killed: 0
Secrets: 9 of 9
Comments:
- Couldn't get to the coin on a ledge behind a metal fence in the garden room behind the altar. When I open the door, the priest steps forward and sideways to the door. I can crouch and sneak in but I get too lit when I approach the coin and the priest alerts.
- A gem is impossible to ghost (unless banner transmigration works which I rarely even attempt) down in the crypt area in a caved in floor area behind the banner. Not allowed to slash the banner to get to it.
- Never did get into the room marked "No Entry" on the first floor at the back of the temple. I can hear frogbeasts behind the door but never found a switch or key to open it.
- Getting into the pool by the servant resting on a bench outside was tricky. I doused all the torches around. The guards at the front doors are a bit blind so you can get to the pool on the side with the ladder. Climb down the ladder. When you get stopped by the water surface tension, try running down the ladder. This gives you enough speed to break into the water slowly without making any splash noise. If you pick up the water arrows in the pool, quickly put them into your inventory so the servant doesn't spot you lit up swimming around in the pool.
- There are lots of little switches to find to open the secrets (which are mandatory instead of bonus objectives because you MUST get the loot they contain).
- There is some loot behind banners. In the 1st floor room you enter through the window and the room on the 2nd floor right above it.
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5. 2nd Nov 2003, 13:31 #80
dafydd
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Gerrard's Temple
FM: Gerrard's Temple
File: gerrards_temple_m.zip
Play mode: Ghost (success)
Perfect Thief (fail -- see below)
Time: 3 hr 39 min
Loot: 4608 out of 4700
Pockets picked: 9 of 10 (all)
Backstabs: 0 Knockouts: 0
Killed: 0
Secrets: 9 of 9
Comments:
Dang! I just ghosted it -- but Vanguard beat me by just a few hours. Shouldn't have taken a break to watch Gatticca.
On the pond near Tommy, or whatever the bench-sitter is named, I just hopped right in; you get a first-level alert, but he doesn't spook if you douse some of the torches around there first.
The No Entry room is opened by a key you can frob from the fireplace in the kitchen: you can't see it, but you can frob it. It's labeled Willy's Lost Key.
Willy is a Frogbeast Keeper. In the room is a tiny lamp, a pair of tiny bunk beds, some tiny chests (fully of tiny nothing), and Willy. He has a tiny book that explains he was sent by the Keepers to infiltrate, but they promptly forgot all about him.
You have to to be very careful to close the door behind you after you investigate the saga of Willy; I left it open... then a few minutes later, as I was sneaking about the stairwell, I heard a loud BOOM!, and the guards started running around like crazy. It seems Willy the Frogbeast Keeper took advantage of the open-door policy and tried to join the party. He found a guard and blew him up. I had to reload from a save about ten minutes earlier and repeat what I had already done... first racing over to the No Entry room and closing the #%&#(*@! door so Willy could go no more a-roving.
There were two pieces of loot I could see but couldn't ghost: first, the one Vanguard mentioned, which requires slashing a banner; this is why Perfect Thief is impossible with this FM, I think. The other was a vase in the dining room... I ran out of water arrows, and there was still one candle lit in there. The guard has super hearing and X-ray vision, and I couldn't get to the vase. I'm now thinking that maybe the speed potion would enable me to get there and back again undetected. Let me see if I have a save around that area....
Nope. I can race into the dark corner left of the vase, then grab it; but when I race back, still speeded, the guard spots me nonetheless. I still think if I had just one more water arrow to dowse the final candle, I could make it. But who knows?
The hardest part of this FM is finding enough loot to finish. You need 4500 for the objective, but there is only 4700 in the entire mission... meaning you need to find 95.7% of all the loot just to finish!
My loot (4608) plus what I could see but not get (75) leaves only 17 unaccounted for. Now that I've ghosted the mission, I'll check the loot list to see where it is. I was short on loot right up until the end; I saved my ghost and went on a mad bashing spree, KOing every human AI in the joint and killing the spiders. I backstabbed the zombie about fifty times, but he never fell down... he did, however, become frozen to the spot: he still shifted around like a "live" but non-patrolling zombie; but he didn't react to me after that, even when I stood directly in front of him and jumped up and down. With all the AIs out of commission, I went on a loot hunt, at last locating enough of the remaining loot that I could reload my ghost game and finally finish the mission.
Anent the guard in the Prayer Room: it seemed that every time I opened the door, he moved forward a pace or two, while not alerting. He ended up far enough forward that I was able to get more or less behind him. I nudged him forward enough that I could get behind him and nab the coin from the sill beyond the railing.
Down in the basement, you eventually work you way around to a tunnel that leads to a crypt. There is a spider guarding the entrance to the tunnel, and next to her is a valuable ruby. I found this one of the hardest items to ghost: every time I grabbed the gem, the spider alerted and charged at me!
Oddly, you can run towards the spider and down the tunnel; she only seems to react when you get a little past the midpoint of the side tunnel within her field of view... evidently, she is myopic.
I found I had to get part way down the tunnel, just far enough that if I crouched and leaned to the left, I could just barely see a corner of the gem. Even then, I couldn't linger for even a second, as the spider would alert. I had to do a flick-grab, flitting to the left for a moment while frobbing. I didn't actually see the gem this time, but I got it and increased my loot total. I think it's only 50 loot points, so it should be possible to complete the mission even if you leave this item alone.
There is a lot of loot behind banners; but except for the banner loot down in the basement, you can frob right through the banners in the other two areas.
Oddly, in the room with a safe, the sleeping priest did not alert when I opened his door, but he did when I closed it... since you can't get the behind-the-banner loot if he is awake, I had to leave the door open the whole time I was looting the place -- in bright light, with a guard patrolling the corridor outside. And on a tile floor! I had to inch forward, grab some item, then inch backwards before the patrolling guard came by.
The rest of the mission was pretty straightforward.
Dafydd
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6. 5th Nov 2003, 10:32 #81
dafydd
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Mixed Messages
FM: Mixed Messages (Vermischte Mitteilungen)
File: MixedMessages.zip
Game: Thief 2
Play mode: Ghost (success)
Perfect Thief (yeah, right!)
Time: 8 hr 28 min
Loot: 2046 out of 3099
Pockets picked: 24 out of 25 (all?)
Backstabs: 0 Knockouts: 0
Killed: 0
Secrets: 9 of 10
Comments:
This is a long, nonlinear mission to raid a CityWatch precinct, though it turns into much more than that.
The goals are considerably more creative than the norm: you have to find a description of a suspect and substitute a fake description; you must decrypt a message -- an additional objective if you find a particular object -- and you must rescue a trollop, in another additional objective. And get 1500 loot.
You get to mess with one of Gorman Truart's houses again, though the mission takes place after he has been murdered. This is great fun to ghost: tile floors, shadow patterns you can follow, some secret areas... it's not difficult; all you need are normal ghostly skills; but it's a lot of fun.
I had a lot harder time (many more reloads after being busted) with the compound surrounding the precinct and Truart's house: there are a heck of a lot of torches, lanterns, and several annoyingly placed lampposts that seem as bright as the noonday sun in Barcelona; you can be standing a hundred feet away, and you're still lit up enough that you'll probably be seen.
As you're looking at the Truart estate from the front gates, standing behind a guard who is (fortunately) staring like a moron at the front door instead of watching the approach to the front door, the entire left front corner area is inaccessable due to one of these lampposts. You need to go to the right, despite the brightish, greenish ambient light there. Just pick your time -- there are patrolling guards -- and inch across, ignoring the level-one alerts you can't fail to draw.
At the right, front corner is an entrance into the wine cellar below, and this is the only way into the house at this point, I think; later, you can turn off the porch lights and get in and out via the front (or back) doors... but not on your first approach.
Later, when you want to raid the buildings surrounding the estate, head toward the green corner and work your way around the estate counter-clockwise; stay away from the bright corner you saw earlier. There is one building there, but all it seems to have is a sleeping servent and a letter to his mum that lets you know there are secret corridors in the Truart estate. There, I've spilled the beans; now you don't have to raid that building. But be sure to hit the weapons shop in the corner before the bright one.
There are a thousand secrets and a million "pockets" to pick; I missed the last secret, but one of the authors assures us that it's an Easter egg that is virtually impossible to find... so for all intents and purposes, there are nine secrets, each of which comprises a tiny lever to flip. Hint: check fireplaces, and always look underneath elevators (get to the bottom floor, then send it up one floor with you not on it).
The toughest secret I actually got is a timed event: push a button, and you get three minutes to complete the sequence, which requires darting from one building through a phalanx of guards to another building. Even so, I got it in about a minute thirty, so it shouldn't be that difficult. Note: I did use an invisibility potion here; it turns out it probably would have been possible to do without, but I didn't feel like going back and redoing it... it's a pain in the patootie.
I think I used one other invisibility potion somewhere, but I can't remember where. No other potions, though; I had but never used a speed potion.
The two additional objectives, which appear if you read certain documents, each require several "sub-objectives," which don't show up in your objective list but must be deduced from clues you read or hear -- of which there are many. This is the first FM I've ever played that requires you to do internet searches to solve the puzzles! There is a door which requires a combination... but the numbers are never given to you straight... you have to figure them out.
There are plenty of clues, however; in fact, it's a bit of overkill. You can even deduce it by information entirely from the mission itself (I did), though it's probably easier to google it.
The hardest part for me to ghost was getting a voodoo-doll-sized scarecrow ("Scaresie") from a well-lit, narrow corridor patrolled by an apebeast. If you have an invisibility potion left, this is the time to use it. I didn't have one, so I had to stand and run behind the apebeast (he shouldn't hear you) on his right side; he turns to the left at the bright end of the corridor, and if you're quick and bold, you can whip around him on the right as he turns left 180 degrees, grab the doll, and run up behind him on his right again. He turns left again at the dark end of the corridor, and you can slide into the shadow, Scaresie in your pocket.
Later, in the Apebeast area, you have to ghost along a shadow line to a treestump surrounded by Frogbeasts; but if you're slowsie and sneaksie, you can grabsie the thingsie. (Sorry about that.)
Beware the Treebeast; he has exceptionally good hearing and will hear you if you clump on the rocks.
Down in the basement below the precinct, when you see the Canopic loot sitting on a pedestal, think "Indiana Jones."
I have no idea where the missing 1000+ loot is; I have a feeling I missed a building I could raid.
You must pay attention to written and auditory clues in this FM; you'll be lost without them (and there's no map). Listen especially to the Apebeast argument at the beginning of that section.
But no abuse of the Dark engine is required to ghost, just good, old-fashioned sneakery skills.
In the precinct itself, beware of the Mechanist faces around the joint; a couple of times, I thought I was golden until I looked outside the glass doors and saw a distant face in yellow alert status staring at me. If you're not looking for it, you might miss that you've been busted. (FailOnSee might help here.)
At the very beginning, there is a killing; but it's scripted, so don't worry about it.
I had to nudge several guards; I don't think you can ghost without doing so, as guards sometimes stare at switches you need and can't flip from behind the guard in his initial position... too far away. But if you nudge him forward, you can frob the switch.
All in all, an excellent FM to ghost... and if you can get perfect thief, my cowl is off to you!
Dafydd
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7. 6th Nov 2003, 10:44 #82
dafydd
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Lord James' Retreat
FM: Lord James' Retreat
File: LordJames_v1_1.zip
Game: Thief 2
Play mode: Ghost (success)
Perfect Thief (closer...)
Time: 3 hr 13 min
Loot: 2562 out of 2862
Pockets picked: 10 out of 12
Backstabs: 0 Knockouts: 0
Killed: 0
Secrets: 3 of 3
Comments:
A short but amusing manor mission: you have to heist a couple of Precursor masks and a golden skull.
Not much to say on this one. Brightly lit, but every light -- and I mean every light! -- can be turned off by a switch.
No nudging, no potions.
After you complete the golden-skull objective, about ten new guards spawn; but if you've been turning off lights like a good taffer, they're just as easy to evade as the original ones. Ultimate Thievers might have a rough go.
When you exit, bring one of those frobbable barrels with you: you'll need it to get out of the little cottage.
Supposedly, there is a way to get up to the roof; it looks like there is a third floor, but I don't know if it's accessible from the roof (which I never got up to). Maybe that's where some of the 300 loot I was missing can be found....
Dafydd
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8. 11th Nov 2003, 07:32 #83
dafydd
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Forgotten Forest, part 1
FM: Forgotten Forest, part 1
File: ForgottenForest1.zip
Game: Thief 2
Play mode: Ghost (success)
Perfect Thief (even closer...)
Time: 4 hr 5 min
Loot: 4985 out of 5150
Pockets picked: 4 out of 5
Backstabs: 0 Knockouts: 0
Killed: 1... see below (required by objective)
Secrets: 1 of 1
Comments:
By and large, ghosting Forgotten Forest, part 1 is straightforward; you don't even need to nudge. There are really only two problem areas, both involving spiders:
At the very beginning, as you first head into the compound, a spider sits right at the entrance. It's well lit, and no matter how slowly Garrett creeps, she sees him. That spider is a bugger!
First, I tried speed tricks: fast, slow, stand-up run fast, crouch run... she alerted each time. Garrett is illuminated by a glowing mushroom; I tried approaching it to snuff it, but I couldn't get to it fast enough, in the brief interval in which she turned her butt away, to avoid detection.
I tried to shoot it with a broadhead, but there is a bush in the way that catches the arrows.
(Sidebar: I maintain that if you're allowed to frob a mushroom to snuff it out, then you're allowed to shoot it with a broadhead to do the same. It's no different from shooting a torch with a water arrow, sez I!)
I went back and tried to climb over the wall instead of going past the spider; there are some boulders around, and I was finally able to pile two on top of each other with me atop to climb the wall... but the moment I got on top, the drunken guard saw me and sobered up, alerting and searching for me. It's possible this is another way in, though, if you pile the rocks further away from the guard.
Just as I was about to give up, figuring maybe I couldn't ghost it -- defeated two minutes into the game! the shame! -- I finally tried one last thing out of desperation that I actually found pretty amusing: I grabbed a boulder and toted it all the way up to Ms. Spider. I crept as near as I could, one more step and she would alert... then I strategically dropped the boulder so that it was in between the spider and my path around the corner, which is where I was always caught. It worked: she couldn't see all of me, so she never alerted.
There are a lot of torches about, and you start (a bit absurdly, if you ask me) with no water arrows at all! And no equipment store, either. You'll do a lot of stand-up running from shadow to shadow in this game, at least until you make it into the haunted chapel and get water arrows (and holy water, necessary for one objective).
Don't forget to read the notice on the back of the notice board; it triggers a new objective to be added. All in all, you can get fourteen objectives (including thou shalt not kill), but one is more of a joke that you only trigger by fulfilling. I didn't get it; when I find out how, I'll just reload a savegame and go try it out.
EDIT NOTE: When you find the secret study in the house, drop the letter to Marucha's wife from her lover onto her husband's desk. You trigger the joke "objective": "Garrett, you are a real bastard!"
You also trigger two objectives when you find some chess pieces, another when you read the inscription of Constance's tomb, and another when you read about a drunken lumberjack who was fired. You actually don't trigger the exit objective until you get to the exit place... but usually you're not ready to exit yet, and you have to come back.
There were several other objectives triggered, but I'm not sure what did it.
The only other tricky ghosting spot is down in the sewers below the crypts; you guessed it -- more spiders.
This time, it's pretty straightforward. At one point, right after you descend the ladder, you must go around an open doorframe (there's no door there, just a doorframe); there are three spiders watching, and I kept alerting them. I had to wait for the one brief moment when all three spiders turned their butts away from me simultaneously to dart around and into darkness again.
Other than that, it was just careful creeping. There are two other spiders in the tombs, but they're not tough; plenty of darkness to hide in.
I noticed a weird thing about the thief patrolling around the big tower on stilts: he would get into a rut where he would start patrolling about five feet, turn, five feet back, turn, and so forth... completely impossible to get past, since he's never looking away long enough to get through the lit zone. But I discovered that if I saved and reloaded, he returned to his correct patrol path, the one he is supposed to follow, which gave me plenty of time to move around while he was elsewhere.
I made the mistake the first time I ran in that area of actually running into that area; this woke up a pagan lumberjack, who proceeded to stare fixedly out his window, right where I had to return. As it's well lit out there, I couldn't get past without alerting him. I had to load an earlier savegame, and this time crouch-run past his window, which let him sleep in peace.
The one secret is found in Constance's tomb, behind a pillar: it opens an area by recessing a sarcophagus... this leads you into a "credits" room, with pictures of the various beta testers, scripters, the Polish-to-English translator, and of course, in the place of honor, the author, Timon. Go up and slash Timon's portrait, then step back and admire your handiwork; reload from before then to keep your ghost!
Loot is a toughie in this mission; you need 4500, but it's not easy: stuff is scattered all over the place. Look on the ground, in dark corners, in bright corners near haunts, &c. It's also a key hunt, which sometimes wears me out: the hardest key for me was the key to the novice's area, at the opposite end of a short corridor from the Big Sword room (believe me, you can't miss the Big Sword room). To get the key to the novice's area, return the way you entered the corridor, but standing up (and looking up); you won't see it if you crouch-walk, as I always do.
Shutting off the alarm gas (deadly) around the Horn of Snoozing Soundly, or whatever it's called, is not tough... once you get to the room where the alarm switch is located. It's the room right next to the start of the haunted crypts section... but the door between them opens only part way then sticks, and you can't squeeze through.
You need to open a secret door to the left of the half-open door (switch on pillar to the left), go down a corridor to an open area, through a door, down another corridor. On your left is a boarded-up space; you need to go in there, but don't despair! You don't have to bust anything (the author was clearly thinking of ghosters )... one of the boards frobs, and you can remove it and weasel through. Go through the sewers, ghosting past the spiders, and up the other end.
You find yourself in the room right next to where you began the crypts section, on the other side of the half-open door. Frob the switch next to the skull.
There is another switch -- there are a whole bunch of "secrets" that don't count as secrets in this FM, but should -- another switch on a nearby pillar that opens a floor plate, finally supplying you with water arrows and holy water... you'll need the latter if you trigger the Constance objective. On that objective, to fulfill it, keep in mind that the original Polish objective read, literally, "to the tomb with the *****," instead of "to hell with the *****," and you should get it.
I killed Constance's ghost, which was an objective; for some reason, I ended up with 2 "other" (non-innocents) killed... since I only killed the ghost (zombie, actually), I was puzzled for a moment. But then I remembered that I hacked it to death once, and then when I came back there -- after a reload elsewhere -- it was back on its feet again. I had to rekill it, and I think that's what produced the second "kill." In any case, both are covered by the objective to kill the ghost... just make sure that not only is it merely dead, it's really most sincerely dead. And you know what to do with a dead body, right? (No, I don't mean lug it to the most inconvenient and embarassing spot to dump it, like the bed of Lord Bafford's wife, you disgusting taffers!)
Lots of fun & larfs; good FM, and great for ghosting!
Dafydd
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9. 12th Nov 2003, 06:48 #84
Peter_Smith
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Re: Forgotten Forest, part 1
Originally posted by dafydd
There are two other spiders in the tombs, but they're not tough; plenty of darkness to hide in.
Congratulations, Dafydd. That was a good one. I thought it might be possible, but I did not have the patience to deal with that entry spider. I got started with the ghost but that first spider got me, so I said OK, down you go, and then I killed too other spiders to get some loot. BTW, that one sewer passage had a whole bunch of spiders - seemed like maybe 8 or so in different areas. I got them all to drown themselves by running around in the water. I'll bet that was a lot more fun than ghosting them.
I did ghost all the people and undead, though.
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10. 12th Nov 2003, 21:42 #85
dafydd
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Spiders
[Peter Smith]
Yes... there are seven spiders in the sewers, and two other spiders in the tombs. The ones in the sewer guard a route to an important room, and the ones in the tombs guard loot; but in each case, it's pretty easy to ghost them.
Really, the only one that is a serious problem is the very first one, the first AI you actually encounter. I seriously considered giving up the ghost; but then I became absolutely obsessed with ghosting that stupid creature!
Dafydd
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11. 15th Nov 2003, 02:25 #86
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Easy Money
FM: Easy Money
File: Easymoney.zip
Game: Thief 2
Play mode: Ghost (success)
Perfect Thief (success -- at long last!)
Time: 0 hr 39 min
Loot: 1782 out of 1782
Pockets picked: 5 out of 6 (all)
Backstabs: 0 Knockouts: 0
Killed: 0
Secrets: 1 of 1
Comments:
Nothing really spectacular... I wouldn't even have posted this, except it's the first time I actually achieved Perfect Thief.
...And probably the last, too!
Note: I played this on Hard, not Expert, because Expert isn't available, per the readme file; so Hard is Expert. Ya fallah?
Dafydd
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12. 15th Nov 2003, 07:30 #87
dafydd
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Hello?
[Folks]
If anybody has a .wav of crickets chirping, we could play it in this topic.
Dafydd
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13. 15th Nov 2003, 20:03 #88
Peter_Smith
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Great idea. Actually, We could play crickets in the entire forum. Note that posts made here have often received no response. In fact, the main purpose of this thread is to record the results. I read your reports, I enjoy them, and I am glad you write them. Be comforted in the fact that you are posting in the official ghost archives in the place where ghosting was invented. Ghost on!
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14. 15th Nov 2003, 20:48 #89
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Here's something to set the mood
Dafydd, have you tried CoSaS: Gathering at the Inn, yet? It's one of the few missions I was able to ghost perfectly, if my memory does not fail me (no 2nd alerts, all loot, no use of consumables/water arrows, no property damage). Very recommended
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15. 16th Nov 2003, 00:38 #90
dafydd
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Consumables
[Eshaktaar]
Dafydd, have you tried CoSaS: Gathering at the Inn, yet? It's one of the few missions I was able to ghost perfectly, if my memory does not fail me (no 2nd alerts, all loot, no use of consumables/water arrows, no property damage).
While not using consumables makes the victory all the more delicious, I don't think such admirable restraint is actually required under either Ghost or Perfect Thief rules, is it?
If so, I failed, as I used two water arrows and ate a loaf of bread I picked up.
Lemmie check... nope; only Supreme Ghost disallows putting out torches. (It also disallows turning off lights or plucking light-emitting mushrooms!)
[Peter Smith]
Note that posts made here have often received no response. In fact, the main purpose of this thread is to record the results.
Note that there haven't been any ghost reports from anyone else since Vanguard posted one two weeks ago. That's what I was talking about... what are the rest of youse doing?
Dafydd
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16. 16th Nov 2003, 00:50 #91
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Non-Ghost report
[Folks]
I tried to ghost The Enterprise, the first mission of the FM A Keeper of the Prophecies (unaltered, I think, from the Thief 2 remake of it that Frobber released a little before)... but I discovered at the end that it is unghostable: one of the objectives is to steal the Master's Key... which is in a little room accessible only by (1) opening a locked door that requires (ahem) the Master's Key, or (2) smashing some boards covering an opening in the ceiling.
I tried and failed to ghost the Stronghold; but I'm convinced it's ghostable. Has it been ghosted? According to the archives, only Vanguard reported trying; he said that it was unghostable because you have to slash a banner to proceed at one point.
He may be right, but I don't recall that... either I just didn't notice, having already decided not to try to ghost -- or else the author fixed this so that the switch that opens the secret door also opens the banner in front of it. But I can't say which from memory.
Other than the (possibly deal-busting) banner problem above, the toughest other spot would probably be after you use one of your six million invisibility potions to get past the Watcher and Turret: there is a big gap you have to span with vine arrows; across it is a corridor, in which we find two Apebeasts at a campfire. I shot them with broadheads from across the gap... but I think it might be possible to moss the floor at their feet from across the gap, then to get below them, pop an inviso, and rush past. Maybe some other time, though I didn't really like the FM at all.
(Actually, I didn't shoot both Apebeasts. I shot and killed one; the other got so agitated he went searching... and stopped near enough to the fire that he eventually roasted himself to death! I guess intelligence isn't the Apebeasts' long suit .)
Dafydd
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17. 16th Nov 2003, 09:55 #92
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Question Looking for Ghost Ruling
[Folks]
Here's a question that just came up in the Search for Crom's Blade. One of the ghost rules says:
4.) No property damage allowed, no banners cut, no things burnt or destroyed. No broken glass.
But in Crom's Blade, at one point there is a tunnel that has an icicle blocking entrance. I broke the icicle to go in.
Now, an icicle is not "property." If the point of ghost is not to let anyone know you were there, then a missing icicle wouldn't make any difference. It's like putting out a torch.
But if one wanted to be uber-persnickity, one could argue that because an icicle is a "thing," and since the rule says "no things burnt or destroyed," that by destroying the icicle, you're busted.
But since this is a dependent clause in a quasi-sentence that begins by talking about property, by "thing," Clayman could have meant a thing that is property... including a board, which was (presumably) put there by some person -- but not including a naturally occurring piece of ice.
So which is it? Am I busted?
Dafydd
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18. 16th Nov 2003, 18:42 #93
Peter_Smith
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The icicle thing can be reported both ways and has been without objection. Vanguard reported it as a bust in Crom's Blade. Two people reported it as a success in Trail of Blood (I am one), where it is necessary to break icicles to get through a passage. That was never questioned as a bust, but it was noted. So, for icicles, I think it rests entirely with your conscience. Report it as an "incident" in either case, and you are covered.
However, there is a place in Crom's blade where a real bust cannot be avoided.
That is property damage regardless. So I am afraid that in the end it will be a bust. No shame in that. The mission is a fine ghoster with minor exceptions.
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19. 16th Nov 2003, 19:35 #94
dafydd
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Hm... dilemma
[Peter]
This leaves me with a dilemma: if I know in advance I can't ghost it because I have to bash a door in at one point, I'm wondering whether I should start busting heads now, which would certainly make things easier.
Or should I ghost all that I can, only letting the bust happen when it may?
Grubmle.
Dafydd
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20. 18th Nov 2003, 10:37 #95
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TrainSpotting
FM: TrainSpotting
File: trainspotting.zip
Game: Thief 2
Play mode: Ghost (success)
Perfect Thief (Nah; way off)
Time: 1 hr 48 min
Loot: 1164 out of 1534
Pockets picked: 5 out of 6 (all)
Backstabs: 0 Knockouts: 0
Killed: 0
Secrets: 0 of 0
Comments:
This was a tough FM for me to ghost because there are hardly any dousable torches -- mostly electric lights -- and some are wired oddly, where turning off one bank of lights automatically turns on the next bank. Also, AIs wander by and turn the lights on again. I think it might have been an entry in one of Komag's small-FM contests, but I'm not 100% sure.
Note: There is one door in the basement, at the end of a corridor with three steam-venting grills, that the patrolling guard checks to make sure it's locked; if you pass through it, be sure to relock it behind you!
After satisfying all the other objectives (except turning the watchers back on after I got the "remote control," which became an objective, hideously enough), I found myself still short on loot... only 1064 with a requirement of 1100 to finish.
There were boxcars that might have had loot, but they were problematical: once you trigger a conversation in the basement, there are three guards patrolling the outside area, rather than only one on the way in (hint: loot the boxcars first!) But I remembered that a room at the end of the long, third-floor corridor had a safe in it, and I figured that was the only way for me to clear the loot objective.
But it's a tough nut to crack while ghosting: there is a "patrolling" guard (more anon) and a stationary guard who flips around a lot.
The patroller is supposed to leave the room periodically, walk to the end of the hallway and into a room, hang out for a moment, then walk back. But he had a tendency to walk back and forth along a patrol path of only six feet or so, leaving no time whatsoever to enter the room. It was almost as if he were pacing... one time, I counted one hundred and sixty back-and-forths before I reloaded.
I remembered having this same problem with a patrolling thief in Forgotten Forest, part 1. In that FM, I discovered that if I saved and reloaded, the patroller would often break out of his rut and actually leave on his normal patrol.
The problem of the pacing patroller was exacerbated by the fact that the lightswitch in there was busted and wouldn't turn off the lights. I don't know whether this is a design feature or a bug... but the author, Schwaa, was aware of the problem a year ago, and when he revamped the FM, he didn't change it... so I lean toward assuming he wanted it that way. The upshot, however, is that unless you are crouching behind the safe, the stationary guard will spot you in the bright room as soon as he turns back... and in any case, if you're still there when the patrolling guard returns, you're dead meat anyway.
Oddly, you don't get the loot when you open the safe: you have to stand in front of the open safe and frob each of the three items inside to get them. This took so long that I wasn't able to both pick the lock and also loot the safe during the time the stationary guard's back was turned.
Here is how I finally solved this problem: I reloaded to get the pacing guard to leave, as in Forgotten Forest; amazingly enough, it seemed to work.
Then I waited a while until the stationary guard turned his back, stood and raced into the brightly lit room, crouched and picked the lock, then stood and raced back out again while the stationary guard's back was still turned. (I had to moss the metal lintel in the doorway.)
I waited a while in the corridor outside, staring hungrily at the unlocked safe door and anxiously down the corridor whence the patroller would reappear at any moment.
At last, just as the patroller appeared at the end of the long corridor, the stationary guard kindly turned his back again, giving me the opportunity to race in, open the unlocked safe door, and loot the safe. Then I darted back out again. I got out just as the patrolling guard returned, but he didn't notice me bolting into the dark corner.
That gave me $100, which was just enough to clear the required loot.
I had to turn the Watchers back on again, so I went over to that section. But for some odd reason, the guard who was supposed to be standing between the corridor and the Watcher Control Room had shifted until he was standing directly athwart the corridor. I had to nudge him more or less back to where he was supposed to be... which was tough because there is another patroller who stalks that corridor; twice I had to break off the nudging operation in order to run into a dark closet while the guard passed by.
Getting out of the building and back to the trains was a bear as well. When you trigger a guard conversation in the basement, two more guards seem to spawn up on ground level, patrolling back and forth between the building and the train.
I had picked up an invisibility potion somewhere (from a footlocker in the guards' sleeping quarters, I think); from the darkness next to the wall, just outside the building, I plopped a moss arrow onto the metal center portion of the footbridge that crosses over to the tracks; then I gulped the potion and ran over the bridge and around the backside of the train.
From there, it was just a matter of timing the now endless succession of patrolling guards and the stupid little robot to get back to my boxcar, ending the mission.
It was a fun, little mission, all in all; I was able to ghost it, but it wasn't "easy money" by any stretch!
Dafydd
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21. 19th Nov 2003, 09:30 #96
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Bafford's Curse
FM: Bafford's Curse
File: baffordscurse_beta.zip
Game: Thief 2
Play mode: Ghost (success)
Perfect Thief (Nah; way off yet again)
Time: 1 hr 32 min
Loot: 900 out of 1529
Pockets picked: 4 out of 10
Backstabs: 0 Knockouts: 0
Killed: 0
Secrets: 0 of 0
Comments:
No particular comments. Something happens right at the very beginning of this FM that precludes getting a lot of picks, but what the hey.
Dafydd
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22. 21st Nov 2003, 09:04 #97
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Lord Fishkill's Curse
FM: Lord Fishkill's Curse
File: lordfishkillscurse.zip
Game: Thief 2
Play mode: Ghost (success)
Perfect Thief (Nope, but closer than usual!)
Time: 4 hr 28 min
Loot: 3598 out of 4255 (657 light)
Pockets picked: 13 out of 17
Backstabs: 0 Knockouts: 0
Killed: 0
Secrets: 1 of 2
Comments:
Nobody has posted about ghosting this one? That's too bad... it's really, really fun to ghost!
First of all, there is a twist in this FM (a sequel to Lorgan's Web, also by Shadowspawn): Garrett is accursed, and every time he gets lit up, regardless of whether there is anyone there to see it, one of three possible monsters spawns and attacks him.
The monsters -- a floating skull-and-Mechanist-machine combo (talks like a Mechanist "servant"), a one-armed skeleton with a cutlass (cackles madly), or a glowing orange spider that spits destructo-rays at you (and makes spidery noises) -- appear about fifteen feet in front of Garrett, and they last a little less than a minute before going poof! and disappearing with a puff of smoke.
You have to develop a technique for dealing with this without alerting anything. Here is what I discovered: first of all, they go in rotation; I think it's Floating Skull, then Skeleton, then Spider, but I don't quite remember. In any case, you know what the next one will be.
Second, the monsters spawn in an unalerted state. This is critical for ghosting: if you dart through a splash of light into darkness, then by the time the AI spawns, it won't be able to see you and won't alert. You can then simply wait it out until it disappears on its own.
Third, they always spawn ahead of you in the direction you're pointing... about fifteen feet away. This means that if you orient yourself correctly before entering the light, the AI will spawn over the edge of the building and drop to the ground (it isn't injured; it just sits there making its normal, unalerted noises, but can't see you up on the building). You can go about your business and ignore it. You can also use a similar technique to cause it to spawn inside a wall; again, it isn't hurt by this, but of course it can't see you.
The only danger here is if you set yourself up so that you enter light and spawn a creature, and it drops off the end of the building -- right near some AI on the street below! The AI will third-alert immediately, either attacking the monster (a guard, say) or running away (a civilian); either way, your ghost is toast.
Fourth, and this is the biggie that allows you to complete the mission: after you spawn a monster and it vanishes, the curse requires ten or fifteen seconds to recharge! This is why you often deliberately enter light to spawn a critter... if there is a big patch of light ahead of you, you don't want to enter: a creature will spawn, and you'll be spotted and busted. But if you whip through a corner of the lit area, or jump in and jump back immediately, or find a little finger of light you can zip through, then you spawn a creature, it doesn't see you (because you're back in darkness) -- and then after it vanishes, you get a good stretch of time to run through the large patch of light without spawning anything.
Don't worry; when you complete the first part of the mission, you will frob an amulet that stops the curse from operating for the duration of the mission. You will also discover during the course of your peregrinations that magical light does not trigger the curse, a fact which becomes somewhat important when you enter the "Research Center," under the Mage's Tower -- yes, this FM is built on the Life of the Party map -- to steal the amulet.
After that point, you don't have to worry about light anymore... well, at least no more than a good thief always must !
This FM is also a blast because Shadowspawn wrote a lot of custom scripts, created custom skins, and even custom movements. AIs that sit on barstools while moving around! AIs that pick up another AI and carry it off!
NOTE: You absolutely do need to download and install Gayle Saver's custom scripts.
http://www.geocities.com/gaylesaver/scr_index.html
There are some truly wild scripting sequences here; but the best requires you to bust your ghost. It is absolutely worth saving your game and taking a detour just to see the various versions of this script.
In the course of your sneaking, opposite the bank, you'll see a balcony. On the balcony is a young man, Jimmy. Earlier, if you've been skulking about like a good taffer, you'll have seen a note from some girl saying she let Jimmy kiss her, but she can never marry him because he's too low class.
Well, if you get near enough to Jimmy up on the balcony, high above the street, you can hear him crying and saying "life's not worth living anymore... she'll never love me!" and threatening to jump and end it all.
If you go down to street level, you see Jimmy's parents, a guard, and a bystander, all staring up at Jimmy and begging him not to jump. Mama is berating the poor guard for not doing enough to save Jimmy.
You can actually frob the guard -- he's one of two frobbable AIs in the game, the other being an ourangouang -- and he'll explain the situation to you and beg you to help out.
Save your game. Go through the bank (tile floors, patrolling guards) up to the top, where you want to rob the safe anyway (you can just wait until you come to it in due course; he shouldn't jump without you being there). Then go out onto the guard's balcony and sneak around to the left or right to get to Jimmy's balcony, across the plaza.
Now you have two main choices; try both!
1) Jump onto the railing (so you can see) and walk around until Jimmy can see you. He will third-alert... and he third-alerts by actually running and leaping off the balcony, plummeting to his death! When he does this, Mom begins to wail and weep... and then she faints. She is either caught by her husband, if he's close enough, or else he walks over and picks her up, consoling her and saying he'll take her home. He actually slings her over his shoulder (like a Continental soldier) and carts her off. It's amazing! The guard keeps saying there was nothing anyone could do, it wasn't anyone's fault but Jimmy's, etc.
2) This is even better: sneak up behind Jimmy and blackjack him. Then pick up his body, carry him back to the bank balcony, through the bank, down the stairs (you can squeeze into the shadows to avoid the downstairs patrolling guard -- or, since you have to reload from a savegame before you did this anyway, just BJ them all), and out onto the street below, where the parents and guard are evidently unaware of the fact that Jimmy is no longer up there.
Go around to where they can see you and drop Jimmy's unconscious body at the parents' feet. They will thank you hysterically, and Mom gives you a coin as a reward... then Dad will go over and pick up Jimmy, sling him over his shoulder (just as he does Mama in scenario 1), and walk off. If you follow them, they go to a frobbable door that you couldn't open earlier, walking right through it. (Try frobbing the door right afterwards for a quick chuckle.)
(The fact that you get a coin as a reward for saving Jimmy may make it impossible to achieve Perfect Thief on this FM; I'm not sure I actually got the coin, though, despite her seeming to give it to me.)
The rest of the FM, after you get the amulet (you need to find the Librarian, a mage who was turned into an ourangoutang, and frob him to get a combination you need for the amulet) is normal ghostable. Fun -- I always liked LotP because I like rooftops -- but remember, you can also climb down to the street and just walk around; so long as you don't draw a weapon or get spotted picking a pocket or a door, the guards won't bother you.
This FM is a blast, especially trying to ghost the first part. Highly recommended!
(There were some Mage guards at the entrance to the experimental lab; I couldn't pass in front of them without being spotted, despite being in total blackness. So I nudged one of the guards out of the way to pass behind him. Just noting for the record.)
I got a loot list after I finished, and I may go back now and try to find the rest of the loot and the remaining secret I missed.
Dafydd
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23. 22nd Nov 2003, 06:34 #98
Peter_Smith
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Congratulations Dafydd. It is tough to get past all those monsters. I played it around half a dozen times as a beta tester. It is a fun mission. My thrust was to get all the loot without alerting any "real" AI, which is not hard hard to do apart from Jimmy. BJ'ing Jimmy, I figured, was OK because it is both the humanitarian thing and a fun thing to do. It actually avoids his death (according to the story), and it gets you that reward coin, which indeed is worth 5. Anyway, I never made it through without causing a a few monsters to spawn. Indeed, part of testing was to make the monsters spawn and make sure they did not behave badly. I am not sure whether or not I avoided their alerting. Didn't pay much attention to that aspect. Probably not. I just ran for cover if they gave me a hard time.
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24. 22nd Nov 2003, 11:35 #99
dafydd
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If you're just sitting around....
[Peter]
...waiting for a new FM to be released, you might try ghosting this one. It's actually doable -- can't be that hard, if I can ghost it! -- and I really enjoyed it.
Dafydd
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25. 23rd Nov 2003, 01:56 #100
Vanguard
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Well, I tried ghosting Lord Fishkill but had to abandon the game. It would crash back to the Windows desktop. Sometimes the game would just freeze. And finally I had to abandon the game when on a reload all the AIs were frozen in place (although they would alert, they could not move) and I couldn't use any weapon or inventory item. Game over. I only use quicksave when ghosting, mostly to overcome when authors deliberately make Garrett a klutz, like a 400 pound fatso trying to waddle through a undersized window or tunnel and he gets stuck or glued to the texture. I got to the point of getting to the kitchen in the underground mage research area. That's when the AIs froze any my inventory became useless. Too much spawning, too many custom scripts, and probably other attributes just made the mission too flaky and eventually self-destructing for me to continue. I'll try something else.
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