Peter Smith

11-25-2007, 09:15 PM

I assume you're talking about treebeasts, goldsla? I always considered any deviance from their rigid statue state as a ghost bust. If they were placed in the mission as idle but unfrozen, then of course their act of searching signifies the 2nd alert.

Perhaps this is just a repeat of what you are saying, Hexameron. I think there are three types of tree beasts, depending apparently on the properties they are assigned when placed in the mission.

1. Some are actually frozen (rigid) and never unfreeze. They have an upright stance. They only make a noise to frighten the player. They never alert.

2. There is a variety that looks like #1, initially frozen, but if it thinks it notices you it will move its arms from vertical to more horizontal and make a slight noise. I would say that stretching out the arms without turning to look around is kind of like "must've been rats" - not a bust, but that is certainly open for debate.

3. Another type goes through a cyclic pattern of shifting around on its feet, and has a bent over stance. Sometimes it goes on patrol. The shifting around and making slight noises is normal behavior for this type, not a bust. It strikes me as akin to a spider rotating.

If you alert a type 2, then after he hunts around he will change to a type 3 and stay that way until you kill him.

With #2 and #3, You will know when you really alert one. The noise becomes more like a tree-beast shout, and they turn to hunt for you, in contrast to the normal shifting around.

That is my reading anyway.

goldsla

11-26-2007, 05:58 AM

I think there are three types of tree beasts, depending apparently on the properties they are assigned when placed in the mission.
I believe the Treebeasts in Lord Alan's Fortress are Type 2. I thought at first they were Type 1, but when I saw one lower its arms a little and growl, I reloaded and was able to avoid even that much of an alert. I just wasn't certain if its actions counted as a level 2 alert, the way that a spider's raised feelers count. (It is so hard to tell with trees what they are thinking, harder than spiders.) Having missed out on the earlier ghosting debates, I thought I would ask. While it did not matter in Fortress, it might in some future mission. Thank you both for the information.

Hexameron

11-27-2007, 01:39 PM

FM: The Focus

Ghost - Success
Perfect Thief - Success
Time - 01:14:42
Loot - 1397/1397
Pockets Picked - 6/7
Backstabs - 0 Knockouts - 0
Damage dealt - 0 Damage taken - 0
Healing taken - 0 Kills - 0
Secrets Found - 5/6

Comments - This is one of the better and perhaps finest contest FM's I've played. While I don't normally spend time in my ghost reports complimenting every facet of a FM, I feel I owe it to this one because it really is a little contest mission of exceptional quality. The mission is small but there are so many places to go, secrets to find, and objectives to complete. Additionally, the interior design and overall floorplan is exquisite and well done. Even the objectives are intricate and unique. My only gripes would have to be the bad English writing in the reading materials and the super close range required to activate levers and switches.

Fun Ghosting and the Mission's Stellar Design

There are really no ghosting problems to report. Although I originally thought that ghosting the watcher on the floor above the library was impossible, it turns out there is a secret passageway to get behind the watcher and turn it off. This mission was actually fun to ghost and while the mission is quite linear at first, the various options for sneaking by guards was refreshing. They might be simple, like leaping through an open space above a couch, using secret tunnels and rope arrows, but I liked that the author put some thought into it. I had to do a lot of retracing steps once I realized 45 minutes into the mission that the place was filled with hard-to-find (let alone difficult to manipulate) switches and levers. Retreading old ground in the mission was never tiresome, though, because of the beautiful interiors (loved the Vermeer painting) and artfully selected sound files. The mission used a lot of TDP music and atmospheric sounds and I got nostalgic for old Thief 1.

Finding the Keeper medallion might have been difficult, but I read the FM's darkloader notes and the author mentioned that a flashbomb was important to have. There are clues written on tablets next to a lot of the statues that explain where to find the medallion. On the highest floor of the tower there is a female statue and a tablet that says something like, "blind me with light and I'll give you might." Dropping a flashbomb caused the statue to slide backwards revealing the Keeper medallion (this is used as a key for accessing the Keeper library in Garibaldi's library).

Decoding the Message (for those who might need help with it)

The FM author gave the player a very interesting challenge of deciphering gibberish in a scroll. I thought the decoding process (detailed in an extra note) was quite original and not at all boring. In my FM playing experience, I've dealt with a lot of absurd puzzles requiring extraordinary mental acrobatics, but this one, while a little difficult to figure out at first, turned out to be fun. Decoding this message is not necessary unless you are short of loot and still need to fulfill the 1000 loot objective. The formula for figuring out the locked vault combination is explained in the scroll's coded message: Take Garibaldi's age and multiply it by ten and triple the sum. Then add five and invert the first and third numbers (1295 would be 9215). Garibaldi's age, 43, is mentioned in his journal. Therefore the formula is 43x10 = 430. 430x3 = 1290. 1290 + 5 = 1295. Invert the first and third numbers = 9215

An optional objective was to kill the ghost of the Master (Garibaldi) in the tower... again, I love the options here. A lot of missions simply tell you to kill someone for no reason, but the author leaves it up to the player to decide if it's prudent/desirable/necessary. Since I'm ghosting, I obviously left him alone.

Once I found all the gear-keys and placed all the Keeper skulls on their pedestals, The Eye appeared in mid air above a marble-floored lobby. The watcher below can be turned off, but I made sure to moss the floor so I could dangle from a rope arrow, snatch The Eye, and drop down below without making noise. Interestingly, the objective to save the Keepers' souls involves re-looting the Keepers' skulls after they had been placed on their pedestals. And from here, all of my objectives were complete and I had found all the loot after a very thorough search. I couldn't figure out how to use the locked backdoor for the longest time, but I discovered that one of the missing servants spawns in his room with an important key needed to escape.

goldsla

11-28-2007, 05:53 PM

FM: A Smuggler’s Request
Ghost: Failure

Comments:
This mission was such a complete and resounding ghosting failure that I will not bore you with the full stats.

A Smuggler’s Request was Richard Cull's 1st FM, back in 2001. And for a first mission, it is really quite good, a bit linear, but it has some interesting ideas. Unfortunately, the mission design is such that you have to KO a number of guards to progress, and property destruction (banner slashing) is required to get all the loot.

Ghosting isn't so hard until you get to the jail, where your confiscated weapons have been stored. Up to that point, you have acquired 6 water arrows and 4 moss arrows. The inside of the jail is teaming with guards, dozens of bright lights that the guards will re-light whenever one gets put out. Stationary guards are situated at the end of corridors, and always detect you unless you have extinguished the lights. Then to make it fun, the guards are hyper-sensative, often alerting just to your proximity, even in total dark. Rooms away they can alert to your putting out a torch with a water arrow!

It did not take me too long to decide that this mission was just not ghostable, so I tried to settle for no KOs. But that went by the wayside as well. It turns out that the guards are so sensitive that they will keep re-alerting each other endlessly.

Just for giggles, while hiding in a corner after alerting a guard, I watched as he alerted one after another of his fellow guards. I tried waiting for them to settle back down, but everytime one would calm down and go back to a normal patrol, one of the remaining alerted guards would come over and re-alert it. After an hour and a half, the same number of guards were still running around looking for me, and I had not moved a muscle!

Nope, the only way to play this mission is to knock them all out. With unlimited water arrows, ghosting might be possible, but as it is, not a chance I think.

Hexameron

11-29-2007, 06:31 AM

goldsla - I noticed your difficulty with "A Smuggler's Request" and I remember playing this many years ago. I wrote up my own personal report but never posted it on Eidos (though Vanguard reported a fail). My report includes only the tough areas and how I solved them. I did manage to ghost this mission but it was hard and I think perfect thief is impossible.

Much of my notes actually don't make sense to me since I haven't played this FM in years. Maybe you can follow along and compare your efforts/results with mine? I apologize for the crude English and incorrect punctuation, but I was just typing up my own private notes for the mission.

FM: A Smuggler's Request

Ghost - Success
Perfect Thief - Failed
Time - 03:41:37
Loot - 3402/3977
Pockets Picked - 17/23
Backstabs - 0 Knockouts - 2
Damage dealt - 2 Damage taken - 2
Healing taken - 0 Kills - 0 Bodies Discovered by Enemies - 1
Secrets Found - 6/11

Comments - This mission took me a few days and much frustration to complete. Ghosting this was quite difficult and even ridiculous. I still didnt find all of the loot; even on a blackjack run, the max I got was 3892 and I couldn't blackjack bluecoats.

-To get the sword and the tavern key in the sewer, I had to walk up to the center structure and right click until I could get the items; the spiders would always see me if I tried to mantle up.
-Dousing the gas lamps in the guardhouse set off the AI 80% of the time. It took many reloads and different arrow string positions (different trajectories and bow tension) to douse all torches successfully.
-I had a limited supply of water arrows in the beginning. I used 1 by the sewer, 1 on the right torch by the sleeping guard at the gate inside, 2 at the mess hall, 4 in the mess hall, 2 by the barracks, and 2 by the prison.
-The guardhouse key was found in Captain Ashe's room, accessible from the ledges of the prison window with the trap chest.
-To get to the evidence room, I had to go through the torture room and up the first ladder and then jump backwards.
-In this game, I forgot to get the loot in the evidence room, but I got the captains log.
-To drop down without taking damage in the guardhouse safe area, I had to douse all torches and drop down on the security combat face.
-To get the lift at the bottom prison area to come up, I had to shoot a moss arrow at the button.
-Captain Quinn was found on the torture rack in the bottom prison area. I couldnt drop Captain Ashe's corpse in the spider sewer without killing him, and I couldnt drop him near the spiders on the ledges because that #@%! wisp would light up the area. I had to carry him into the sewer to hit the proximity point for the objective to check off, then haul him back to the storage area where my equipment should have been.
-To hit the switches successfully on the boat, I had to douse most of the torches, set up a rope arrow on the bottom ledge, and then start from the button in the captains quarters, the button under the ramp, the button under the map/banner on the table, then jump onto the rope and go down into the belly of the boat and into the water tank... and then the button behind the wheel to open the ceiling compartment in the captains quarters. The peg in this compartment fit onto the wheel in the same room, and the hatch on the bottom of the ship would open.
-For some reason, I got a "bodies discovered by enemies: 1" in the final stats. I dont know why this is so, im sure I didnt leave both of the captains' corpse's near any AI, and I cant remember seeing any other bodies.

Hard to find loot: Amulet by skull in sewers, purse on bluecoat at the beginning, purse on guard patrolling through the side castle near the archer, ring on the skeletal remains under the lift, loot behind the banner in the tavern, wine bottle in the same room, coin stacks and other loot in the kitchen in the bottom cabinets behind the crates, purse on the ground in the crypt area from the torture room, purse in a niche in the barracks, chest on the platform from the delivery lift, purse on the roof accessible from the short wall near the fountain at the lower city section.

goldsla

11-29-2007, 07:21 AM

BRAVO! Hexameron, my hat is off to you on this one. It was the relighting of torches that got me to give up on the ghosting in the end. No sooner than I managed to douse a torch without alerting anyone, and a guard would come by and relight the blasted thing. Without the relighting, I probably would have continued the ghosting, but I was running out patience as I ran out of water arrows.
I did manage to ghost this mission but it was hard and I think perfect thief is impossible.
Early in the mission there is a secret area with two gold nuggets inside. You can "reach through" a tapestry, pick the lock of an invisible safe and get them, or you can do as the designer intended and slash the tapestry. I'm not certain if reaching through the tapestry is a "use of quirks of the Dark engine" or not, but slashing the banner in a definite no-no. I can't remember any other loot that you should not be able to get ghosting . . .
Ghosting this was quite difficult and even ridiculous.
No kidding!
To get the sword and the tavern key in the sewer, I had to walk up to the center structure and right click until I could get the items; the spiders would always see me if I tried to mantle up.
And the sword and key are not visible from a distance, so the only way to know to do that is to kill the spiders, search the area, reload, and then collect the goodies. You really cannot find them while ghosting.
Dousing the gas lamps in the guardhouse set off the AI 80% of the time. It took many reloads and different arrow string positions (different trajectories and bow tension) to douse all torches successfully.
For me it was more like 95-99% of the time. And then the relighting . . . argh!!
I had a limited supply of water arrows in the beginning. I used 1 by the sewer, 1 on the right torch by the sleeping guard at the gate inside, 2 at the mess hall, 4 in the mess hall, 2 by the barracks, and 2 by the prison.
That sounds right, except for having to redouse some of them. You definately earned your stripes when you ghosted this one. I may try it again when I am better rested and have all the time in the world to reload saves.
To get the lift at the bottom prison area to come up, I had to shoot a moss arrow at the button.
A gas arrow is as silent and is easier to aim . . . and ghosting there is no use for the 2 you have otherwise, while the moss arrow might be of use elsewhere . . .

Hexameron

11-30-2007, 08:11 PM

FM: Frozen Mines

Ghost - Success (Chemical)
Perfect Thief - Failed
Time - 00:37;00
Loot - 825/955
Pockets Picked - 1/8
Backstabs - 0 Knockouts - 0
Damage dealt - 0 Damage taken - 0
Healing taken - 0 Kills - 0
Secrets Found - 2/3

Comments - I didn't care much for this contest mission, so I didn't give it my usual full-blooded efforts. The mission itself is a very linear icy cave with dwarves (reskinned guards), making it more like a fantasy RPG game. Since no kills or knockouts are permitted, the mission basically enforces ghost mode.

Ghosting the mission might actually be impossible if certain New Objectives are triggered. I stumbled on a journal in one of the study's next to the storage room and it gave me a new objective to "Kill the Monster." I found this "monster," which was a reskinned apparition, patrolling in a constant square-shaped pattern in a brightly lit pit framed by descending ramps. I followed the apparition's back gracefully and went in for the kill, but an overhead backstab would not kill him in one blow. I can't tell if there is another way to kill him or not. Regardless, he turned around and killed me instantly. I decided to reload to my previous save before reading the journal and just forgot about it.

I went about looking for loot (800 required) and that was the most difficult part of the mission; lots of silver nuggets camouflaged in obscure ice cracks and lots of hidden coinstacks. I was unable to get the 85 loot in the river next to the ice burrick. Jumping into water is required and it always alerts the burrick.

I also had to nudge the idle guard next to the large icicle. I was able to sneak by the patrolling guard here and get behind the idle one, but trying to reverse the process did not work and the idle guard would always see me. I had to nudge him forward towards the scroll so I could escape the area.

In order to complete my loot objective I needed some essential loot in the dwarf pub, but for the life of me I could not sneak in here at all without being spotted. Fortunately, the designer left an invisible potion for Garrett and I used this to run into the room and steal all the loot.

Finding the Bloodstone was not difficult, though I still somehow missed one secret in the mission when I'm pretty sure I scoured everywhere; I even found an insanely placed piece of loot: a silver nugget on top of the icy ledge at the mission start. You can't even see it... but I was jumping around and accidentally found it.

One final note: the mission did not end for me even after my objectives were completed. Just to make sure it wasn't because of the New Objective variable, I triggered that, killed the apparition, and the mission still did not end. Obviously, I ended up using CASE.

Peter Smith

12-01-2007, 12:20 AM

Re: Smuggler's Request. Old Man did it early on - I think it is written up in the first volume of ghost reports. He had to nudge an AI a long way to avoid his hearing something. Then Vanguard failed. I am pretty sure I ghosted it shortly after it came out, but I did not write a report for some reason. I do not recall any extreme difficulty, but I am sure it will come back to me. You guys have inspired me to do it again. But first I have to finish a long beta testing project.

goldsla

12-01-2007, 01:23 PM

Old Man did it early on - I think it is written up in the first volume of ghost reports.
I just checked Old Man's early ghosting report. You remembered correctly. He did not realize that the could get the key and sword without busting the ghost, and so solved the problem of the tavern differently. (Though exactly how is not clear from his report.) Again, My hat is off. Also getting by the two archers on the ship for the timed runs to the switches is an impressive feat. I really may have to try to ghost it again now that I know the mission so well. Maybe my problem is that I did not do a KO run first. Old Man reported doing one, and I think Hexameron did too. I did, at least, get all the loot, and I can't remember anything in the mission that would prevent perfect thief, assuming you ghost it.

goldsla

12-01-2007, 01:39 PM

FM: The Karrassinian Threat
Ghost: Failure

Comments:
I finally got my wish: a mission that is clearly impossible to ghost from the very beginning! The problem is that you need to to enter the "undersea" city, and cannot do so without busting the ghost. (It is undersea in the same sense that Amsterdam is under the sea, not in the sense that Atlantis is rumored to be.) Unfortunately the only way in is to break a window. So much for ghosting. There are two other panes of glass which must be broken in order to get at loot necessary for the loot objective, so even if you discount the first breakage, you cannot get away from the need for more. Once in the city, the guards pretty much ignore you unless you do something obvious. So the mission is just a loot hunt up until the very end. Then, getting into the cathedral and stealing the cultivator, sparks an invasion by black garbed neo-mechanists who proceed to kill everyone in sight. Now the goal is to get out unscathed (or with as little scathing as possible). The neo-mechanists are hyper-alert after massacaring the townfolk. So, getting by them (and thier 'bots) is a bit of a challenge, but not too bad. The longer you wait, the easier it is.

I was wrong about A Smuggler’s Request. I should know better than to say ghosting is impossible just because it requires extremes of patience and reloads. But I defy ANYONE to ghost this mission!! There ain't no other way in. And if there were, you would still need to break glass in order to make the loot objective. :rasp:

goldsla

12-02-2007, 09:01 PM

FM: Two Fathers

Ghost - Success
Perfect Thief - SUCCESS
Time - 02:45;00
Loot - 6383/6383
Pockets Picked - 18/21, Locks Picked: 14
Backstabs - 0 Knockouts - 0
Damage dealt - 0 Damage taken - 0
Healing taken - 0 Kills - 0
Secrets Found - 2/2

Comments - Finally a FM that I could ghost the first time, no dry runs with KOs, just ghost from beginning to end. Joy! And a Perfect Thief too!!

The mission starts out in a rough section of town. There are four thieves lounging about: two in the building opposite and two facing each other in the street. This is the first ghosting challenge: get across the way, to the building opposite, without alerting the two thieves standing in the street. The way to stay in the shadows is not clear or straight, and the thieves are naturally hyper-sensitive. Once across, you can go upstairs and collect arrows and bombs and mines from under the noses of the other two thieves. Then go down the stairs, and around to the back of the building. You find an entrance to a series of caves there. But first explore a little more above ground. South of the buildings is a mine entrance at the end of the street. You can't sneak across at ground level without the thieves alerting to you, but you can fire a rope arrow into the beam above the mine entrance, climb up, cross the beam to the other side and drop down. If you fully draw your bow, the thieves will hear the thunk of the arrow, so only half draw it and aim high. On the other side you can sneak into the building that the street thieves are in front of and collect your first loot. The way back is the same. Rope arrow into the beam, up and over. (A side excursion is possible from the roofs of these buildings into the back lot of the FM. A couple of civilians circle through a guarded tunnel. You can drop down there -- taking damage -- and explore a bit if you want, but save first as there is no way back.

Next we go spelunking through a series of cave spider infested caverns. Have I eve mentioned how much I hate nasty, little, white, creepy, cave spiders. Ugh! I believe there are eight of them positioned strategically. With a little careful climbing you can leave them behind you. Next you go cave diving. You have barely enough air to make it through with no stops along the way. If you don’t know where you are going, you are in trouble. Good thing Garrett has been here before as a child! (I had not. But I made it through after only a couple of tries.) Then I thought I missed a branch, dove back down, and discovered how nasty minded Uncadonego (Don Adam) was. He had set up another underwater tunnel which is made to look as though it is an air hole. But the ceiling is set too low for you to get a breath. Truly demented. In discovering it, I also found a gold nugget, and was able to return to the real exit before I lost my breath. Whew! Enough cave diving. Now more spelunking. Mostly mantling this time. No nasties to avoid. Just up, up, up to the new gated community.

There are three houses built and occupied with two more under construction, and a playground for the kiddies. Adults don’t slide too well, and Garrett was no exception. But he did enjoy sinking a few hoops. Then on to the eastern-most house. The owner is named Ben, and he is married to a woman with a twin sister who loves playing pranks on him . . . but enough “Leave it to Beaver.” The ghosting challenge here is the archer in the dining room. You have to sneak by him going to the kitchen and again coming back. He is a nasty piece of work, and there is a nervous Nellie of a housemaid running back and forth from the kitchen, making the ghosting even harder. Fractional steps was the only way (unless you favor moss arrows, but that might have alerted him, everything else did . . . ) On the outside, I had to nudge a guard to get by and pick two pockets. Now on to the next house.

This one was a true 2nd story job. I thought I could use a tree, but for some reason I could not jump from a rope arrow there. So I went over to the third house, rope arrowed up a wooden architectural detail, and onto the wall between the two houses. From there it was easy to rope arrow up to the attic. A switch in the upper bedroom revealed a secret mansion up above the gated community. This was not hard to ghost, but some loot was very hard to find or access. The kitchen safe key was really well hidden, as was a spice bag in the pantry. I believe there was a ring placed under a hairbrush. And green wine bottles with monitary value. (I wish folk would stop with that. Green bottles are not supposed to be worth anything. But some FM designers think its cute to hide loot in a green bottle. Fargh!)

I appreciated that Uncadonego worked hard to get the right scale for the little things, even if it made finding them harder. Too often gems are the size of golf balls. Not in this mission. I almost missed a half-dozen or so gems because they were realistically scaled.

In the fountain area I made my only use of water arrows in the mission. When I collected 30 water arrows at the start, I was worried that I would need a lot. But I only used 4, all at this one spot.

The last house I also entered at the top. This is the doctor’s house, and by coming in from above, you learn early on that the special potion is stored in the downstairs closet. But when you get down there, the closet is empty. There is a very well hidden switch which you need to jump to see and flip, but you need to time it so that you are not heard. (I suppose you could moss arrow the floor, but that has always struck me as anti-ghosting. I mean, what kind of ghost leaves behind a green mossy spot to be cleaned up by the owner. Strikes me as almost as bad as property damage: a kind of nasty defacing of the floor. Oh well.) In any event, I did not use a moss arrow, and flipped the switch.

Now believe it or not, Uncadonego provided a really cool way to get back to the start of the mission from the housing development, but if you wait until you have completed all the objectives, you’ll never find it, because the mission ends too soon. I really wish he had made the final objective to get back to the cave entrance so that more folk would find that path. It is even ghostable (if tricky); there is a vertical pipe in the upper cave which takes you all the way down to the spider caverns, and which you can negotiate without taking damage. Très cool. Too bad it is unnecessary.

I really enjoyed this one. The lower floors of the secret mansion were a mite empty, but I found that reasonable, given the plot, and just as hard to search as rooms with furnishings are. Truly, I would not have wanted to be the one carrying groceries up all those steps, however! Good clues. Nothing too difficult. The mission seemed designed with ghosting in mind. There were some tricky bits, but nothing obnoxious. Just a good romp out helping a friend. And nice to know that Garrett's an uncle . . .:D

goldsla

12-05-2007, 11:35 AM

FM: Durant

Ghost - "Qualified" Success
Perfect Thief - Failure
Time - 04:05:19
Loot - 2787/2807
Pockets Picked - 14/18, Locks Picked: 12
Backstabs - 0 Knockouts - 0
Damage dealt - 85 Damage taken - 0
Healing taken - 0 Kills - 0
Secrets Found - 2/2

Comments - OK this is why the success is marked as qualified. The FM has an explicit objective: " ... somehow find a way to destroy the prototype child." All well and good, but there is no place to destroy the child where it will not be discovered and cause an alert. I know because I killed it at every step along its programmed path. It never took very long for it to be found (even if an AI had to see through a solid machine to see it!), but it always was found and it always caused an alert.

So I needed another approach, and my solution was to let some of the AIs take each other out. That way there would be a spot that a dead prototype child could fall and not be discovered. This is taking advantage of ghosting rule 12: "AI behaviors that are programmed into the game (scripts) and that are not caused by Garrett's being seen or heard, are allowed if agreed by the consensus of the ghosting community." So I had to do this without alerting the AIs directly. Let the community judge if what I did qualifies.

My approach was to open the sewer door so that the patrolling haunt outside and the patrolling mechanists inside would see each other when they were both walking towards the open door at the same time. This meant that I had to wait for the patrols to align, then watch the fun from the shadows. I did it twice, just to make sure that the first time was not just good luck, and both times, eventually, one would discover the other, and their natural antipathy would govern their actions. Each time it took over an hour (!!!), so I read a book while waiting (The Infinity Concerto by Greg Bear):whistle: . With some of the patrols out now of the way, I could then safely destroy the prototype child where its body would not be discovered. (All of this could have been avoided if the FM designer (Donald F. Mazur) had allowed the child to be picked up and hidden or provided a spot which another AI did not patrol. Not the case however.)

Now I believe that had I elected not to read a particular manuscript, I could have avoided the objective to destroy the child in the first place. I did not restart and try that. If I remember correctly, the same manuscript also tells you the code needed to manufacture a replacement cog for the entrance to Grimworth and de Perrin's shop. So you would have to have saved that information from a prior run if you want to avoid the kill the child objective. I personally think that Garrett’s world is a better place without that thing running around.

Other than that, this was not a particularly difficult mission to ghost. Some guards did re-light extinguished gas lights, but not always, and not many areas needed to have the lights put out in order to traverse them. It was, however, quite fun. Most of the AIs were reasonably sensitive (with the exception of the one in the Mechanist basement), and the clues provided were all fair.

Oh, I classified the monkey in the cage at the top floor of the Mechanist Building with plants and rats. It can look at you, react to your presence, but, intrinsically, it does not alert.

So you judge. Was this a legit ghosting?:scratch:

Hexameron

12-05-2007, 01:02 PM

I can't remember if I've played this mission but after reading your report I personally think it is a bust...

... Only because of Ghosting Rule # 5:

Garrett must not cause suicides of AI or melees that intentionally cause AI to attack each other...

If the AI's natural patrols led them to clash then it would be ok, but opening doors for it to happen, and then waiting a while seems like a stretch. Without knowing the mission intimately, though, I can only offer my opinion and not a credible analysis.

Are the AI patrols that come across the child at any point in narrow hallways/corridors? I mean, is there anyway to place objects (crates?) in front of their projected path, perhaps at doorways or narrow gaps to block them off? I know that's even more ridiculous as far as claiming a legitimate ghost, but hey, Sneak did things like that in T2's Kidnap :cool:

Well, I trust your ghosting expertise and that you've considered all feasible options, but you might just want to let this one go as a failed attempt :(

goldsla

12-05-2007, 02:11 PM

I personally think it is a bust...

... Only because of Ghosting Rule # 5:

Garrett must not cause suicides of AI or melees that intentionally cause AI to attack each other...

If the AI's natural patrols led them to clash then it would be ok, but opening doors for it to happen, and then waiting a while seems like a stretch.
Yes. I know. But rule 5's full text is: Garrett must not cause suicides of AI or melees that intentionally cause AI to attack each other, with the exception of rule 12.[italics mine]
So you are allowed to cause AIs to attack each other, just within the restrictions of rule 12. That is what I was attempting to do. I did not alert anybody or cause them to go searching outside of their normal patrol patterns. I just made it possible for them to notice each other.

I figure that if an AI can alert to a destroyed prototype when it can't see it, but only walks by on the other side of a large machine, I should be allowed to let them see each other. Consider: I could exit through that door, leave it open, complete some other part of the mission, return to discover that they had fought each other in my absence, making it possible for me now to destroy the prototype where it would not be noticed. Would that have been OK? I personally do not see that would have been even an issue. So why does me hanging around make a difference. I think what I did was exactly what rule 12 is all about. No?

Are the AI patrols that come across the child at any point in narrow hallways/corridors? I mean, is there anyway to place objects (crates?) in front of their projected path, perhaps at doorways or narrow gaps to block them off? I know that's even more ridiculous as far as claiming a legitimate ghost, but hey, Sneak did things like that in T2's Kidnap :cool:

I have had success doing such things with mechanicals (T2X's "Shadowing the Enemy" mission comes to mind) but I would remove the crates after the deeds were done to let the mechanicals resume their normal patrols. (Believe me it can be tricky removing a blocking crate from an AI!). Here, removing the crates (and it would have taken 3 or 4 to block the narrowest path, and that many are not readily available) would have defeated the purpose and not to do so would have defeated the spirit of ghosting, if that spirit is "The only evidence of your presence should be the items you have stolen." **** No, I'm afraid that was neither practical under the circumstances nor personally acceptable.

Let's see what Peter says. If this is a bust, it is a bust. No biggie. The reason I wrote it up was to find out what others think of the solution. If ya'll think it is no good, then it isn't. :)

Hexameron

12-05-2007, 04:06 PM

So you are allowed to cause AIs to attack each other, just within the restrictions of rule 12.

But I thought Rule 12 was aimed specifically at unusual incidences involving game scripts: conversations that lead to an AI melee (Life of the Party), aggressive AI's placed intentionally close so that they start a fight, completing mission objectives that instigate AI melees, and other uncommon circumstances in the mission design... :confused:

Maybe I'm interpreting this rule incorrectly, but I somehow don't think it applies to your situation in "Durant": opening a door so that the AI see each other and fight. I'm trying to think of when I encountered this and T2's "Shipping and Receiving" comes to mind with the spider in the shed on Davidson's ship. Opening the door can sometimes lead to one of the patrolling thieves spotting the spider and starting a battle, and I can't remember from any old OM ghost reports if this was reported as an okay. Personally, I made sure it didn't happen when I ghosted "Shipping..."

Well, before we speculate anymore, I think you're right: let's wait for Peter to chime in.

goldsla

12-05-2007, 05:30 PM

But I thought Rule 12 was aimed specifically at unusual incidences involving game scripts: conversations that lead to an AI melee (Life of the Party), aggressive AI's placed intentionally close so that they start a fight, completing mission objectives that instigate AI melees, and other uncommon circumstances in the mission design... :confused:
Could be. I'm not exactly certain what "script" is intended to represent. Clearly plot elements are included, such as the ones you mention. But are inherent AI actions? I have over 30 years experience in the software industry as a programmer and programming manager, and I know of no single, commonly accepted definition for "script." And I'm sure the gaming industry has its own special jargon of which I am blissfully ignorant. So until the author speaks, we won't be certain.

But let us explore rule 5 exclusive of rule 12. Now just what does it say?
Garrett must not cause suicides of AI or melees that intentionally cause AI to attack each other
Did I cause a suicide? No. (!!? What FM gave rise to this idea??)
Did I cause a melee? Maybe. I argue I didn't actively cause a melee. This phrase prings to mind shooting a noisemaker arrow to bring combatants together at a higher alert level. I did nothing to raise their alert levels.
Did I intentionally cause an AI to attack each other? I intentionally opened a door so that if they felt so inclined they could do so. But their inherent nature (I read this as "script") caused them to attack when it was triggered by events that I had no part in (i.e. their walking about) So I am not so certain about causes. I have trouble with the concept of causing an AI to do anything without raising the alert level (or possibly nudging . . . If I nudged an AI so that it moved within range of another AI and it attacked it, that would defininately be causing it to attack.)

Hair splitting. I am probably sunk from a rule 5 perspective. So I had better hang my hat on rule 12. I just think that from a ghosting standpoint, I lived up to the spirit of not raising any alerts directly. I don't know . . . whatever.

Peter Smith

12-05-2007, 10:23 PM

Goldsla,

I think Hexameron's interpretation is correct. I believe it is a bust, no matter what you do, unless you can kill the golden child without causing the melee.

The script rule was designed to cover incidents like LOTP archers, where they start something automatically without specific player action other than just showing up in the vicinity or triggering something, say, by reading a book or accomplishing an objective. With the broader definition of script you suggested, any program is a script, the whole game is a script, and there could be no busts.

In the spirit of the rule, you started the melee because you planned the event to be a melee, and you directly caused it. That is first degree melee. Guilty as charged. :)

If anything, discussions like these reinforce another commonly held belief by strict ghosters that the script rule should never have been allowed in the first place because it opens up arguments that have no right or wrong answer. An example is the pages and pages of debate that followed the release of Gumdrop's mission The Cistern. In that, you had to throw a switch that filled a cistern with water. Some beasts were alive in the cistern before the event, and they were drowned in the water afterward. I said it was a script, as obviously it was, because the game does not provide for real time water filling. It was an illusion. Others said that throwing the switch caused the deaths. No matter what side you take, you can be right or wrong.

My general approach is to call it a bust if you are stretching it.

goldsla

12-06-2007, 12:42 PM

I believe it is a bust, no matter what you do, unless you can kill the golden child without causing the melee.
Guilty as charged, then. Should I edit the post to reflect this opinion, or leave it alone?

So far I appear to be zero for three in the debateable call department. In Lord Alan's Factory I lean towards classifying tripped traps as violiating the spirt of ghosting: "The only evidence of your presence should be the items you have stolen." (I also consider the use of moss arrows a viloation of that spirit, and plan to report their use in the future.) However, I regard the taking of personal notes on prior runs through a mission as not a violation of rule 9: "No loot cheats or walkthroughs are allowed." Sigh. Diferences of opinion, I suppose, are not new to this topic.

On the positive side, all of this debate and caring about the rules shows that there is still honor among theives!:D

Hexameron

12-06-2007, 01:55 PM

I lean towards classifying tripped traps as violiating the spirt of ghosting: "The only evidence of your presence should be the items you have stolen." (I also consider the use of moss arrows a viloation of that spirit, and plan to report their use in the future.) However, I regard the taking of personal notes on prior runs through a mission as not a violation of rule 9: "No loot cheats or walkthroughs are allowed."

Traps are just too ambiguous to fall under the ghost bust category. What would we do with T1's Bonehoard or "The Sword"? I think there needs to be a fine technical rather than spiritual line for what constitutes a ghost bust: alerts, damage dealt, kills/knockouts, visible property damage, and clear rule-breaking that results from the player's actions, not the storyline or mission design. That's where I felt the opposing viewpoints on The Cistern were wrong. If Garrett flipped a switch that caused a fireball to shoot out and kill the bugbeasts, it would be a bust. But as Peter pointed out, the whole thing was an illusion, a part of the mission design.

Obviously a ghost bust occurs if setting off a trap alerts AI. But we can't speculate that triggering a trap breaks the spirit of ghosting. We could just get crazy and say no opened doors, extinguished fires, or manipulated levers because it serves as evidence that a thief was there.

Which reminds me, what do you guys think of picking up (destroying?) frobbable mushrooms? I consider this okay... but shooting a broadhead into one of them somehow seems like a property damage bust.

goldsla

12-06-2007, 02:14 PM

...We could just get crazy and say no opened doors, extinguished fires, or manipulated levers because it serves as evidence that a thief was there.

Which reminds me, what do you guys think of picking up (destroying?) frobbable mushrooms? I consider this okay... but shooting a broadhead into one of them somehow seems like a property damage bust.

It does get pretty crazy. That's one reason I prefer to avoid putting out fires. (I'm also stingy about all consumables.) But I do not go so far as to replace crates or keys. That is just a little too anal even for me. As to frobbable mushrooms, the only ones I've seen so far just have their light extinguished, they remain right where they were. Do you think they should be condered to be "broken" and hence property damage? I classify that as the same as putting out a torch. If that is not property damage, neither is extinguishing mushrooms. If they went into your inventory, I would consider them loot and fair game for sure.

goldsla

12-06-2007, 07:50 PM

FM: Hidden Agenda

Ghost - Success
Perfect Thief - Failure
Time - 03:30:53
Loot - 3228/3490
Pockets Picked - 6/8, Locks Picked: 18
Backstabs - 0 Knockouts - 0
Damage dealt - 0 Damage taken - 0
Healing taken - 0 Kills - 0
Secrets Found - 3/4

Comments:
Another great early mission.This one is from January 2002. It was written/designed by AsyluM (Mark Smith), and was a great romp. I completed the ghost on my first run through the mission.

For me it started out a little tense, with way too much light and way too little shadow, until I got the feel for the way the AIs reacted. After that I had no problems ghosting. Some of the Watchers required split second timing, especially around the upper entrance to the vault, and the double Watchers in the area with the drilling machine. But it was almost as though AsyluM had ghosting in mind when he developed it. I shouldn't grouse after my earlier complaints about AIs that were too sensitive, but this mission was almost too easy to ghost, not enough of a challenge. Almost.

I think in a month or so I may give this mission another try, just to see if I can find all the loot. I'm annoyed that I missed one of the secrets too. I'll update this report if I succeed at that time.

Hexameron

12-07-2007, 01:50 PM

FM: House of Random

Ghost - Success
Perfect Thief - Failed
Time - 01:33:15
Loot - 3152/3202
Pockets Picked - 12/14
Backstabs - 0 Knockouts - 0
Damage dealt - 0 Damage taken - 0
Healing taken - 0 Kills - 0
Secrets Found - 1/1

Comments - Although this is a contest mission, it feels large-scale and I spent at least 4 hours on it. I was hoping to obtain a perfect thief but I think I must have missed some 50 loot in the sewers or back in the beginning town area because I searched the mansion like a madman. Once the 2400 loot and grabbing the eye/hand objective is checked off, returning to the mission-start will end the mission. So unfortunately I couldn't search for loot in the sewers.

This mission was a little difficult to ghost because just about every floor in the mansion is made of tile. The numerous AI and unpredictable patrols are also challenging to deal with. I confess I used more moss arrows than I normally would in a mission. In addition to needing them for hitting lightswitches at a distance, moss just made some areas less painful and reload intensive.

There are lots of optional objectives and hidden loot in this mission, too. I found the only secret simply because I was hiding in the trophy room area against the wall. I just happened to notice that the bugbeast and crayman trophies could be highlighted; frobbing them both reveals a hidden gem.

The Eye and Hand of Glory are found on pedestals in the art gallery on the second floor. Removing these items from their pedestals sets off an alarm. This means that objects of significant weight need to be placed on the pedestals before looting The Eye and the Hand. Two crates were conveniently placed in a nearby storage room and they did the trick. The FM designer also placed other lootable items around the mission that could be used as well, like a heavy golden skull and rocks. But I'm glad I used the crates because there is a tiny gold ring underneath of them that I wouldn't have noticed had I not picked up the crates. Speaking of rings, there is reading material that talks about a bird that nabbed a ring and flew off with it somewhere outside. I found this ring on a ledge outside of the third floor's bathroom.

The mechanist room accessed from the third floor balconies is a peculiar place. Flipping the lightswitch in here transports the player to another isolated room. Flipping the switch in that room takes the player to another one. It's a disorienting ride after all of the teleportation into new rooms is done. The last room is an abandoned house with a haunt in the basement.

Getting back to the mission start was difficult. Since the sewers I used at the beginning to get to the mansion area were no longer accessible, the only possible way to escape is by the front of the mansion with the non-functional portcullis. There are some pipes that lead to a ledge on top of the portcullis. Two keen-eyed archers are standing on a balcony connected to the mansion and are gazing intently at the top of the ledge. It's possible to slink by them, but the bigger problem was that dropping off of the ledge into the street causes damage. My solution was to gently move off of the ledge surface until I could just barely hang onto it. Then I dropped a bunch of my scrolls and potions onto the ground. Aiming for these objects, I dropped off of the ledge and hit my stacked notes and potions and avoided taking damage.

Hexameron

12-07-2007, 07:23 PM

FM: Into the Maelstrom

Ghost - Success
Perfect Thief - Success
Time - 00:43:57
Loot - 1345/1345
Pockets Picked - 0/1
Backstabs - 0 Knockouts - 0
Damage dealt - 0 Damage taken - 0
Healing taken - 0 Kills - 0
Secrets Found - 3/3

Comments - This is a stunning and highly original contest FM that gave me the chills. The maniacal-looking faces of the undead pirates and the reskinned apparition with bloody gouged eyes was viscerally effective. The atmosphere as a whole was quite scary, even reminisicent of "The Cathedral of the Damned." Beyond the scares, though, the details and quality of design put into this mission certainly gives it a shining artistic value.

Ghosting the mission was a little irritating, though... at first. Moving around on the main ship was hazardous and I reloaded many times simply because the apparition who lays aft was a little quirky. Sometimes he would go on a very brief second alert that I often barely noticed. I reloaded whenever I had doubts about being seen or heard or not. I also had an annoying will-o-wisp to be wary of, in addition to cramped spaces and deceiving shadows. Fortunately my scrounging senses were at their best and I did not need to retrace my steps back to the original ship for any loot; I had found all of it including the little secret switch in the hold of the ship.

I was oblivious to the secret cliff with the Mantle of the State, which looked like a huge jeweled amulet. But after mantling onto the Maelstrom ship, I looked back and noticed a strange protrusion jutting out the side of the cavern wall above the boulder in the sand. The author placed two rope arrows in the mission, so I used one to get up to the cliff and retrieved the Mantle.

I spent the longest time trying to figure out how to activate the candle and perform the ritual in the secret room of the Maelstrom. Since I found two fire arrows, I took a risk by firing one into the candle... and sure enough this triggered a script and checked off a bonus objective to free the undead of their spell. It's interesting how we were just discussing "The Cistern" drowned bugbeast scenario because this particular situation fits into the same category of scripted deaths.

It's impossible to tell if shooting the fire arrow alerts anyone because the screen goes white and everything went silent. The spectral rat that had been scurrying around in the ritual room was dead (but in a different position than I last saw him before the white screen), and all of the undead pirates and ghosts were also dead. Since performing the ritual is NOT required, I of course opted to leave it be. But had this been an objective, I would still claim a ghost because this clearly falls under a circumstance involving a special script.

Anyway, since the final objectives told me to find a lifeboat and get to a safe spot, I took the trouble of going back to the original ship to pick up one of the rowboats there. I approached the ship's aft by swimming through the water and used a rope arrow to climb up. The quirky apparition stands and paces next to the helm, but I easily got my rowboat, climbed back down into the water by rope, and made my way to the safe cave.

goldsla

12-14-2007, 06:40 PM

FM: The Hightowne Museum 1.1

Ghost - Success
Perfect Thief - Success
Time - 00:27:09
Loot - 1887/1887
Pockets Picked - 1/2, Locks Picked: 1
Backstabs - 0 Knockouts - 0
Damage dealt - 0 Damage taken - 0
Healing taken - 0 Kills - 0
Secrets Found - 0/0

Comments:
This mission was an entry in the second 64x64x64 mission contest. So the mission space is tiny. That said, it was fun, if simple, to ghost. The only "tricky" bit in the mission is to get the Serpent's Eye gemstone from the security vault it is residing in. And that wasn't all that tricky. The humorous labling of the museum exhibits was, perhaps, the most entertaining aspect of the mission. In all, it was a nice diversion for a half an hour. Someone new to ghosting might like this as a managable mission for a first ghosting attempt. And no spiders!

Hexameron

12-15-2007, 03:18 PM

FM: Freedo Finds One

Ghost - Success (Chemical)
Perfect Thief - Failed
Time - 01:13:33
Loot - 4259/4979
Pockets Picked - 6/7
Backstabs - 0 Knockouts - 0
Damage dealt - 0 Damage taken - 0
Healing taken - 0 Kills - 0
Secrets Found - 3/4

Comments - The author of this FM stated that it was his or her first mission. While there are some dromed architectural flaws and crude designing, the mission actually has a variety of places to explore and a spacious layout that was fun to traverse and ghost. Indeed, the author says in the darkloader notes: "If you like to Ghost missions, you might be disappointed. I haven't tried it, but being my first mission, I didn't design it for ghosting." Well... the majority of this mission was easy to ghost. But there are some major problems with declaring this a ghost because of two "New Objectives" that are triggered when reading certain scrolls/books.

Preliminary Notes

-Almost every idle guard will pivot in at least two directions, making tough ghosting spots a breeze. I almost got spoiled from expecting every idle guard to rotate.
-The author likes to hide loot in odd places (loose coins on insignificant ledges, purses and statues under seemingly ordinary furniture). And some regular objects are actually loot items).
-There are at least 4 "New Objectives" triggered by reading scrolls and books, so without reading these, the mission could have been ghosted without a chemical success (which I'll explain soon).

Ghosting Problems

One ghosting issue I had was at the front lobby of the bank with the watcher. An objective was actually to disable these watchers in the bank, but to do so requires using the lift next to the watcher in this lobby. His pivot radius is wide, so I was able to hide under his nose. The patrolling archer was oblivious, but I had to shoot moss onto the metal lift because of the desk obstructing my path. Since I was under the watcher and had to make a dash, jumping over the desk was the only option and having moss was vital.

Using the lift to move down to the basement posed a problem because of the idle (non-pivoting) guard down there. He always saw me as I lowered down on the elevator; the solution was to quickly strafe to my left and drop off of the elevator into the darkness. Successfully getting back up to the lobby with the active watcher required randomness and reloads. Since I can't guess where his face might be aiming, I simply quick-saved and kept taking the elevator upwards until I came up while his face was turned. Once these watchers are disabled from the attic, I didn't have to deal with this sticky spot again.

An important make-or-break situation with regards to my ghost success also occurs with a "New Objective" that I chose to not trigger. Reading the scroll on the desk inside the bank teller's area activated an objective to find a missing ring. This ring is actually in a pool of water under the previously discussed elevator. There is simply no way to drop into this pool of water without alerting multple AI, so I reloaded and continued the mission without reading that scroll.

Chemical Success

Again, these darned "New Objectives" kept amassing after seemingly every reading material I stuck my nose in. One of these objectives was to find a Hand of Glory (the "hand" in this FM had a different name). The hand is found in some abandoned Lost Cityesque ruins with motion-detecting light sources. The hand is actually located in a room accessible only by dropping down through the ceiling with the help of an already-placed rope arrow. Unfortunately, a (non-pivoting) haunt is staring in the area of the rope and the crack in the ceiling.

Scaling down the rope through the crack in the ceiling triggers the blue-gem light source, and there was my problem: how to get down into this room without alerting the haunt. I managed to shoot moss arrow onto the ground and drop down into the room without disturbing him but it took a few reloads. It is impossible, however, to get back onto the rope and leave the room without alerting him; there is simply too much light. Fortunately, the author left an invis potion in this room and I used it to make my escape. Again, had I not triggered new objectives, I wouldn't have had to visit these ruins.

Perfect Thieving the mission, by the way, did not seem feasible. There was a brightly lit tavern with a guard and a barmaid standing in front of a large assortment of loot. I could have doused all of the torches inside and perhaps some nudging may have been required, but I had trouble finding the rest of the loot. Even on a blackjack run I was still about 160 loot short and while I'm usually meticulous about loot, I had a feeling I would need to scrape every cobble-stone, bush, window ledge and bathroom stall to find loose coins and I wasn't in the mood :cool:. I'm sure the one missing secret would have helped but I couldn't find it :scratch: