Peter Smith
11-25-2007, 09:15 PM
I assume
you're talking about treebeasts, goldsla?
I always considered any deviance from their rigid statue state as a ghost bust.
If they were placed in the mission as idle but unfrozen, then of course their
act of searching signifies the 2nd alert.
Perhaps this is just a repeat of what you are saying, Hexameron.
I think there are three types of tree beasts, depending apparently on the
properties they are assigned when placed in the mission.
1. Some are actually frozen (rigid) and never unfreeze. They have an upright
stance. They only make a noise to frighten the player. They never alert.
2. There is a variety that looks like #1, initially frozen, but if it thinks it
notices you it will move its arms from vertical to more horizontal and make a
slight noise. I would say that stretching out the arms without turning to look
around is kind of like "must've been rats" - not a bust, but that is
certainly open for debate.
3. Another type goes through a cyclic pattern of shifting around on its feet,
and has a bent over stance. Sometimes it goes on patrol. The shifting around
and making slight noises is normal behavior for this type, not a bust. It
strikes me as akin to a spider rotating.
If you alert a type 2, then after he hunts around he will change to a type 3
and stay that way until you kill him.
With #2 and #3, You will know when you really alert one. The noise becomes more
like a tree-beast shout, and they turn to hunt for you, in contrast to the
normal shifting around.
That is my reading anyway.
goldsla
11-26-2007, 05:58 AM
I think
there are three types of tree beasts, depending apparently on the properties
they are assigned when placed in the mission.
I believe the Treebeasts in Lord Alan's Fortress are
Type 2. I thought at first they were Type 1, but when I saw one lower its arms
a little and growl, I reloaded and was able to avoid even that much of an
alert. I just wasn't certain if its actions counted as a level 2 alert, the way
that a spider's raised feelers count. (It is so hard to tell with trees what
they are thinking, harder than spiders.) Having missed out on the earlier
ghosting debates, I thought I would ask. While it did not matter in Fortress,
it might in some future mission. Thank you both for the information.
Hexameron
11-27-2007, 01:39 PM
FM: The
Focus
Ghost - Success
Perfect Thief - Success
Time - 01:14:42
Loot - 1397/1397
Pockets Picked - 6/7
Backstabs - 0 Knockouts - 0
Damage dealt - 0 Damage taken - 0
Healing taken - 0 Kills - 0
Secrets Found - 5/6
Comments - This is one of the better and perhaps finest contest FM's I've
played. While I don't normally spend time in my ghost reports complimenting
every facet of a FM, I feel I owe it to this one because it really is a little
contest mission of exceptional quality. The mission is small but there are so
many places to go, secrets to find, and objectives to complete. Additionally,
the interior design and overall floorplan is exquisite and well done. Even the
objectives are intricate and unique. My only gripes would have to be the bad
English writing in the reading materials and the super close range required to
activate levers and switches.
Fun Ghosting and the Mission's Stellar Design
There are really no ghosting problems to report. Although I originally thought
that ghosting the watcher on the floor above the library was impossible, it
turns out there is a secret passageway to get behind the watcher and turn it
off. This mission was actually fun to ghost and while the mission is quite
linear at first, the various options for sneaking by guards was refreshing.
They might be simple, like leaping through an open space above a couch, using
secret tunnels and rope arrows, but I liked that the author put some thought
into it. I had to do a lot of retracing steps once I realized 45 minutes into
the mission that the place was filled with hard-to-find (let alone difficult to
manipulate) switches and levers. Retreading old ground in the mission was never
tiresome, though, because of the beautiful interiors (loved the Vermeer painting)
and artfully selected sound files. The mission used a lot of TDP music and
atmospheric sounds and I got nostalgic for old Thief 1.
Finding the Keeper medallion might have been difficult, but I read the FM's darkloader notes and the author mentioned that a flashbomb was important to have. There are clues written on
tablets next to a lot of the statues that explain where to find the medallion.
On the highest floor of the tower there is a female statue and a tablet that
says something like, "blind me with light and I'll give you might."
Dropping a flashbomb caused the statue to slide
backwards revealing the Keeper medallion (this is used as a key for accessing
the Keeper library in Garibaldi's library).
Decoding the Message (for those who might need help with it)
The FM author gave the player a very interesting challenge of deciphering
gibberish in a scroll. I thought the decoding process (detailed in an extra
note) was quite original and not at all boring. In my FM playing experience,
I've dealt with a lot of absurd puzzles requiring extraordinary mental
acrobatics, but this one, while a little difficult to figure out at first,
turned out to be fun. Decoding this message is not necessary unless you are
short of loot and still need to fulfill the 1000 loot objective. The formula
for figuring out the locked vault combination is explained in the scroll's
coded message: Take Garibaldi's age and multiply it by ten and triple the sum.
Then add five and invert the first and third numbers (1295 would be 9215). Garibaldi's
age, 43, is mentioned in his journal. Therefore the formula is 43x10 = 430.
430x3 = 1290. 1290 + 5 = 1295. Invert the first and third numbers = 9215
An optional objective was to kill the ghost of the Master (Garibaldi) in the
tower... again, I love the options here. A lot of missions simply tell you to
kill someone for no reason, but the author leaves it up to the player to decide
if it's prudent/desirable/necessary. Since I'm ghosting, I obviously left him
alone.
Once I found all the gear-keys and placed all the Keeper skulls on their
pedestals, The Eye appeared in mid air above a
marble-floored lobby. The watcher below can be turned off, but I made sure to
moss the floor so I could dangle from a rope arrow, snatch The Eye, and drop
down below without making noise. Interestingly, the objective to save the
Keepers' souls involves re-looting the Keepers' skulls after they had been
placed on their pedestals. And from here, all of my objectives were complete
and I had found all the loot after a very thorough search. I couldn't figure
out how to use the locked backdoor for the longest time, but I discovered that
one of the missing servants spawns in his room with an important key needed to
escape.
goldsla
11-28-2007, 05:53 PM
FM: A
Smuggler’s Request
Ghost: Failure
Comments:
This mission was such a complete and resounding ghosting failure that I will
not bore you with the full stats.
A Smuggler’s Request was Richard Cull's 1st FM, back in 2001. And for a first
mission, it is really quite good, a bit linear, but it has some interesting
ideas. Unfortunately, the mission design is such that you have to KO a number
of guards to progress, and property destruction (banner slashing) is required
to get all the loot.
Ghosting isn't so hard until you get to the jail, where your confiscated
weapons have been stored. Up to that point, you have acquired 6 water arrows
and 4 moss arrows. The inside of the jail is teaming with guards, dozens of
bright lights that the guards will re-light whenever one gets put out. Stationary
guards are situated at the end of corridors, and always detect you unless you
have extinguished the lights. Then to make it fun, the guards are hyper-sensative, often alerting just to your proximity, even in
total dark. Rooms away they can alert to your putting out a torch with a water
arrow!
It did not take me too long to decide that this mission was just not ghostable, so I tried to settle for no KOs. But that went
by the wayside as well. It turns out that the guards are so sensitive that they
will keep re-alerting each other endlessly.
Just for giggles, while hiding in a corner after alerting a guard, I watched as
he alerted one after another of his fellow guards. I tried waiting for them to
settle back down, but everytime one would calm down and
go back to a normal patrol, one of the remaining alerted guards would come over
and re-alert it. After an hour and a half, the same number of guards were still
running around looking for me, and I had not moved a muscle!
Nope, the only way to play this mission is to knock them all out. With
unlimited water arrows, ghosting might be possible, but as it is, not a chance
I think.
Hexameron
11-29-2007, 06:31 AM
goldsla - I noticed your difficulty with "A
Smuggler's Request" and I remember playing this many years ago. I wrote up
my own personal report but never posted it on Eidos
(though Vanguard reported a fail). My report includes only the tough areas and
how I solved them. I did manage to ghost this mission but it was hard and I
think perfect thief is impossible.
Much of my notes actually don't make sense to me since I haven't played this FM
in years. Maybe you can follow along and compare your efforts/results with
mine? I apologize for the crude English and incorrect punctuation, but I was
just typing up my own private notes for the mission.
FM: A Smuggler's Request
Ghost - Success
Perfect Thief - Failed
Time - 03:41:37
Loot - 3402/3977
Pockets Picked - 17/23
Backstabs - 0 Knockouts - 2
Damage dealt - 2 Damage taken - 2
Healing taken - 0 Kills - 0 Bodies Discovered by Enemies - 1
Secrets Found - 6/11
Comments - This mission took me a few days and much frustration to complete.
Ghosting this was quite difficult and even ridiculous. I still didnt find all of the loot; even on a blackjack run, the
max I got was 3892 and I couldn't blackjack bluecoats.
-To get the sword and the tavern key in the sewer, I had to walk up to the
center structure and right click until I could get the items; the spiders would
always see me if I tried to mantle up.
-Dousing the gas lamps in the guardhouse set off the AI 80% of the time. It
took many reloads and different arrow string positions (different trajectories
and bow tension) to douse all torches successfully.
-I had a limited supply of water arrows in the beginning. I used 1 by the
sewer, 1 on the right torch by the sleeping guard at the gate inside, 2 at the
mess hall, 4 in the mess hall, 2 by the barracks, and 2 by the prison.
-The guardhouse key was found in Captain Ashe's room, accessible from the
ledges of the prison window with the trap chest.
-To get to the evidence room, I had to go through the torture room and up the
first ladder and then jump backwards.
-In this game, I forgot to get the loot in the evidence room, but I got the
captains log.
-To drop down without taking damage in the guardhouse safe area, I had to douse
all torches and drop down on the security combat face.
-To get the lift at the bottom prison area to come up, I had to shoot a moss
arrow at the button.
-Captain Quinn was found on the torture rack in the bottom prison area. I couldnt drop Captain Ashe's corpse in the spider sewer
without killing him, and I couldnt drop him near the
spiders on the ledges because that #@%! wisp would light up the area. I had to
carry him into the sewer to hit the proximity point for the objective to check
off, then haul him back to the storage area where my equipment should have
been.
-To hit the switches successfully on the boat, I had to douse most of the
torches, set up a rope arrow on the bottom ledge, and then start from the
button in the captains quarters, the button under the ramp, the button under
the map/banner on the table, then jump onto the rope and go down into the belly
of the boat and into the water tank... and then the button behind the wheel to
open the ceiling compartment in the captains quarters. The peg in this
compartment fit onto the wheel in the same room, and the hatch on the bottom of
the ship would open.
-For some reason, I got a "bodies discovered by enemies: 1" in the
final stats. I dont know why this is so, im sure I didnt leave both of the
captains' corpse's near any AI, and I cant remember
seeing any other bodies.
Hard to find loot: Amulet by skull in sewers, purse on bluecoat at the
beginning, purse on guard patrolling through the side castle near the archer,
ring on the skeletal remains under the lift, loot behind the banner in the
tavern, wine bottle in the same room, coin stacks and other loot in the kitchen
in the bottom cabinets behind the crates, purse on the ground in the crypt area
from the torture room, purse in a niche in the barracks, chest on the platform
from the delivery lift, purse on the roof accessible from the short wall near
the fountain at the lower city section.
goldsla
11-29-2007, 07:21 AM
BRAVO! Hexameron, my hat is off to you on this one. It was the
relighting of torches that got me to give up on the ghosting in the end. No
sooner than I managed to douse a torch without alerting anyone, and a guard
would come by and relight the blasted thing. Without the relighting, I probably
would have continued the ghosting, but I was running out patience as I ran out
of water arrows.
I did manage to ghost this mission but it was hard and I think perfect thief is
impossible.
Early in the mission there is a secret area with two gold nuggets inside. You
can "reach through" a tapestry, pick the lock of an invisible safe
and get them, or you can do as the designer intended and slash the tapestry.
I'm not certain if reaching through the tapestry is a "use of quirks of
the Dark engine" or not, but slashing the banner in a definite no-no. I
can't remember any other loot that you should not be able to get ghosting . . .
Ghosting this was quite difficult and even ridiculous.
No kidding!
To get the sword and the tavern key in the sewer, I had to walk up to the
center structure and right click until I could get the items; the spiders would
always see me if I tried to mantle up.
And the sword and key are not visible from a distance, so the only way to know
to do that is to kill the spiders, search the area, reload, and then collect
the goodies. You really cannot find them while ghosting.
Dousing the gas lamps in the guardhouse set off the AI 80% of the time. It took
many reloads and different arrow string positions (different trajectories and
bow tension) to douse all torches successfully.
For me it was more like 95-99% of the time. And then the relighting . . .
argh!!
I had a limited supply of water arrows in the beginning. I used 1 by the sewer,
1 on the right torch by the sleeping guard at the gate inside, 2 at the mess
hall, 4 in the mess hall, 2 by the barracks, and 2 by the prison.
That sounds right, except for having to redouse some
of them. You definately earned your stripes when you
ghosted this one. I may try it again when I am better rested and have all the
time in the world to reload saves.
To get the lift at the bottom prison area to come up, I had to shoot a moss
arrow at the button.
A gas arrow is as silent and is easier to aim . . . and ghosting there is no
use for the 2 you have otherwise, while the moss arrow might be of use
elsewhere . . .
Hexameron
11-30-2007, 08:11 PM
FM:
Frozen Mines
Ghost - Success (Chemical)
Perfect Thief - Failed
Time - 00:37;00
Loot - 825/955
Pockets Picked - 1/8
Backstabs - 0 Knockouts - 0
Damage dealt - 0 Damage taken - 0
Healing taken - 0 Kills - 0
Secrets Found - 2/3
Comments - I didn't care much for this contest mission, so I didn't give it my
usual full-blooded efforts. The mission itself is a very linear icy cave with
dwarves (reskinned guards), making it more like a fantasy RPG game. Since no
kills or knockouts are permitted, the mission basically enforces ghost mode.
Ghosting the mission might actually be impossible if certain New Objectives are
triggered. I stumbled on a journal in one of the study's next to the storage
room and it gave me a new objective to "Kill the Monster." I found
this "monster," which was a reskinned apparition, patrolling in a
constant square-shaped pattern in a brightly lit pit framed by descending
ramps. I followed the apparition's back gracefully and went in for the kill,
but an overhead backstab would not kill him in one blow. I can't tell if there
is another way to kill him or not. Regardless, he turned around and killed me
instantly. I decided to reload to my previous save before reading the journal
and just forgot about it.
I went about looking for loot (800 required) and that was the most difficult
part of the mission; lots of silver nuggets camouflaged in obscure ice cracks
and lots of hidden coinstacks. I was unable to get
the 85 loot in the river next to the ice burrick.
Jumping into water is required and it always alerts the burrick.
I also had to nudge the idle guard next to the large icicle. I was able to
sneak by the patrolling guard here and get behind the idle one, but trying to
reverse the process did not work and the idle guard would always see me. I had
to nudge him forward towards the scroll so I could escape the area.
In order to complete my loot objective I needed some essential loot in the
dwarf pub, but for the life of me I could not sneak in here at all without
being spotted. Fortunately, the designer left an invisible potion for Garrett
and I used this to run into the room and steal all the loot.
Finding the Bloodstone was not difficult, though I still somehow missed one
secret in the mission when I'm pretty sure I scoured everywhere; I even found
an insanely placed piece of loot: a silver nugget on top of the icy ledge at
the mission start. You can't even see it... but I was jumping around and
accidentally found it.
One final note: the mission did not end for me even after my objectives were
completed. Just to make sure it wasn't because of the New Objective variable, I
triggered that, killed the apparition, and the mission still did not end.
Obviously, I ended up using CASE.
Peter Smith
12-01-2007, 12:20 AM
Re:
Smuggler's Request. Old Man did it early on - I think it is written up in the
first volume of ghost reports. He had to nudge an AI a long way to avoid his
hearing something. Then Vanguard failed. I am pretty sure I ghosted it shortly
after it came out, but I did not write a report for some reason. I do not
recall any extreme difficulty, but I am sure it will come back to me. You guys
have inspired me to do it again. But first I have to finish a long beta testing
project.
goldsla
12-01-2007, 01:23 PM
Old Man
did it early on - I think it is written up in the first volume of ghost
reports.
I just checked Old Man's early ghosting report. You remembered correctly. He
did not realize that the could get the key and sword
without busting the ghost, and so solved the problem of the tavern differently.
(Though exactly how is not clear from his report.) Again, My hat is off. Also
getting by the two archers on the ship for the timed runs to the switches is an
impressive feat. I really may have to try to ghost it again now that I know the
mission so well. Maybe my problem is that I did not do a KO run first. Old Man
reported doing one, and I think Hexameron did too. I
did, at least, get all the loot, and I can't remember anything in the mission
that would prevent perfect thief, assuming you ghost it.
goldsla
12-01-2007, 01:39 PM
FM: The Karrassinian Threat
Ghost: Failure
Comments:
I finally got my wish: a mission that is clearly impossible to ghost from the
very beginning! The problem is that you need to to
enter the "undersea" city, and cannot do so without busting the
ghost. (It is undersea in the same sense that Amsterdam is under the sea, not
in the sense that Atlantis is rumored to be.) Unfortunately the only way in is
to break a window. So much for ghosting. There are two other panes of glass
which must be broken in order to get at loot necessary for the loot objective,
so even if you discount the first breakage, you cannot get away from the need
for more. Once in the city, the guards pretty much ignore you unless you do
something obvious. So the mission is just a loot hunt up until the very end.
Then, getting into the cathedral and stealing the cultivator, sparks an
invasion by black garbed neo-mechanists who proceed to kill everyone in sight.
Now the goal is to get out unscathed (or with as little scathing as possible).
The neo-mechanists are hyper-alert after massacaring
the townfolk. So, getting by them (and thier 'bots) is a bit of a challenge, but not too bad. The
longer you wait, the easier it is.
I was wrong about A Smuggler’s Request. I should know better than to say
ghosting is impossible just because it requires extremes of patience and
reloads. But I defy ANYONE to ghost this mission!! There ain't
no other way in. And if there were, you would still need to break glass in
order to make the loot objective. :rasp:
goldsla
12-02-2007, 09:01 PM
FM: Two
Fathers
Ghost - Success
Perfect Thief - SUCCESS
Time - 02:45;00
Loot - 6383/6383
Pockets Picked - 18/21, Locks Picked: 14
Backstabs - 0 Knockouts - 0
Damage dealt - 0 Damage taken - 0
Healing taken - 0 Kills - 0
Secrets Found - 2/2
Comments - Finally a FM that I could ghost the first time, no dry runs with
KOs, just ghost from beginning to end. Joy! And a Perfect Thief too!!
The mission starts out in a rough section of town. There are four thieves
lounging about: two in the building opposite and two facing each other in the
street. This is the first ghosting challenge: get across the way, to the
building opposite, without alerting the two thieves standing in the street. The
way to stay in the shadows is not clear or straight, and the thieves are
naturally hyper-sensitive. Once across, you can go upstairs and collect arrows
and bombs and mines from under the noses of the other two thieves. Then go down
the stairs, and around to the back of the building. You find an entrance to a
series of caves there. But first explore a little more above ground. South of
the buildings is a mine entrance at the end of the street. You can't sneak
across at ground level without the thieves alerting to you, but you can fire a
rope arrow into the beam above the mine entrance, climb up, cross the beam to
the other side and drop down. If you fully draw your bow, the thieves will hear
the thunk of the arrow, so only half draw it and aim
high. On the other side you can sneak into the building that the street thieves
are in front of and collect your first loot. The way back is the same. Rope
arrow into the beam, up and over. (A side excursion is possible from the roofs
of these buildings into the back lot of the FM. A couple of civilians circle
through a guarded tunnel. You can drop down there -- taking damage -- and
explore a bit if you want, but save first as there is no way back.
Next we go spelunking through a series of cave spider infested caverns. Have I eve mentioned how much I hate nasty, little, white, creepy,
cave spiders. Ugh! I believe there are eight of them positioned strategically.
With a little careful climbing you can leave them behind you. Next you go cave
diving. You have barely enough air to make it through with no stops along the
way. If you don’t know where you are going, you are in trouble. Good thing
Garrett has been here before as a child! (I had not. But I made it through
after only a couple of tries.) Then I thought I missed a branch, dove back
down, and discovered how nasty minded Uncadonego (Don
Adam) was. He had set up another underwater tunnel which is made to look as
though it is an air hole. But the ceiling is set too low for you to get a
breath. Truly demented. In discovering it, I also found a gold nugget, and was
able to return to the real exit before I lost my breath. Whew! Enough cave
diving. Now more spelunking. Mostly mantling this time. No nasties to avoid.
Just up, up, up to the new gated community.
There are three houses built and occupied with two more under construction, and
a playground for the kiddies. Adults don’t slide too well, and Garrett was no
exception. But he did enjoy sinking a few hoops. Then on to the eastern-most
house. The owner is named Ben, and he is married to a woman with a twin sister
who loves playing pranks on him . . . but enough “Leave it to Beaver.” The
ghosting challenge here is the archer in the dining room. You have to sneak by
him going to the kitchen and again coming back. He is a nasty piece of work,
and there is a nervous Nellie of a housemaid running back and forth from the
kitchen, making the ghosting even harder. Fractional steps was the only way
(unless you favor moss arrows, but that might have alerted him, everything else
did . . . ) On the outside, I had to nudge a guard to get by and pick two
pockets. Now on to the next house.
This one was a true 2nd story job. I thought I could use a tree, but for some
reason I could not jump from a rope arrow there. So I went over to the third
house, rope arrowed up a wooden architectural detail, and onto the wall between
the two houses. From there it was easy to rope arrow up to the attic. A switch
in the upper bedroom revealed a secret mansion up above the gated community.
This was not hard to ghost, but some loot was very hard to find or access. The
kitchen safe key was really well hidden, as was a spice bag in the pantry. I
believe there was a ring placed under a hairbrush. And green wine bottles with monitary value. (I wish folk would stop with that. Green
bottles are not supposed to be worth anything. But some FM designers think its cute to hide loot in a green bottle. Fargh!)
I appreciated that Uncadonego worked hard to get the
right scale for the little things, even if it made finding them harder. Too
often gems are the size of golf balls. Not in this mission. I almost missed a
half-dozen or so gems because they were realistically scaled.
In the fountain area I made my only use of water arrows in the mission. When I
collected 30 water arrows at the start, I was worried that I would need a lot.
But I only used 4, all at this one spot.
The last house I also entered at the top. This is the doctor’s house, and by
coming in from above, you learn early on that the special potion is stored in
the downstairs closet. But when you get down there, the closet is empty. There
is a very well hidden switch which you need to jump to see and flip, but you
need to time it so that you are not heard. (I suppose you could moss arrow the
floor, but that has always struck me as anti-ghosting. I mean, what kind of
ghost leaves behind a green mossy spot to be cleaned up by the owner. Strikes
me as almost as bad as property damage: a kind of nasty defacing of the floor.
Oh well.) In any event, I did not use a moss arrow, and flipped the switch.
Now believe it or not, Uncadonego provided a really
cool way to get back to the start of the mission from the housing development,
but if you wait until you have completed all the objectives, you’ll never find
it, because the mission ends too soon. I really wish he had made the final
objective to get back to the cave entrance so that more folk would find that
path. It is even ghostable (if tricky); there is a
vertical pipe in the upper cave which takes you all the way down to the spider
caverns, and which you can negotiate without taking damage. Très
cool. Too bad it is unnecessary.
I really enjoyed this one. The lower floors of the secret mansion were a mite
empty, but I found that reasonable, given the plot, and just as hard to search
as rooms with furnishings are. Truly, I would not have wanted to be the one
carrying groceries up all those steps, however! Good clues. Nothing too
difficult. The mission seemed designed with ghosting in mind. There were some
tricky bits, but nothing obnoxious. Just a good romp out helping a friend. And
nice to know that Garrett's an uncle . . .:D
goldsla
12-05-2007, 11:35 AM
FM:
Durant
Ghost - "Qualified" Success
Perfect Thief - Failure
Time - 04:05:19
Loot - 2787/2807
Pockets Picked - 14/18, Locks Picked: 12
Backstabs - 0 Knockouts - 0
Damage dealt - 85 Damage taken - 0
Healing taken - 0 Kills - 0
Secrets Found - 2/2
Comments - OK this is why the success is marked as qualified. The FM has an
explicit objective: " ... somehow find a way to destroy the prototype
child." All well and good, but there is no place to destroy the child
where it will not be discovered and cause an alert. I know because I killed it
at every step along its programmed path. It never took very long for it to be
found (even if an AI had to see through a solid machine to see it!), but it
always was found and it always caused an alert.
So I needed another approach, and my solution was to let some of the AIs take
each other out. That way there would be a spot that a dead prototype child
could fall and not be discovered. This is taking advantage of ghosting rule 12:
"AI behaviors that are programmed into the game (scripts) and that are not
caused by Garrett's being seen or heard, are allowed if agreed by the consensus
of the ghosting community." So I had to do this without alerting the AIs
directly. Let the community judge if what I did qualifies.
My approach was to open the sewer door so that the patrolling haunt outside and
the patrolling mechanists inside would see each other when they were both
walking towards the open door at the same time. This meant that I had to wait
for the patrols to align, then watch the fun from the shadows. I did it twice,
just to make sure that the first time was not just good luck, and both times,
eventually, one would discover the other, and their natural antipathy would
govern their actions. Each time it took over an hour (!!!), so I read a book
while waiting (The Infinity Concerto by Greg Bear):whistle: . With some of the
patrols out now of the way, I could then safely destroy the prototype child
where its body would not be discovered. (All of this could have been avoided if
the FM designer (Donald F. Mazur) had allowed the child to be picked up and
hidden or provided a spot which another AI did not patrol. Not the case
however.)
Now I believe that had I elected not to read a particular manuscript, I could
have avoided the objective to destroy the child in the first place. I did not
restart and try that. If I remember correctly, the same manuscript also tells
you the code needed to manufacture a replacement cog for the entrance to Grimworth and de Perrin's shop. So you would have to have
saved that information from a prior run if you want to avoid the kill the child
objective. I personally think that Garrett’s world is a better place without
that thing running around.
Other than that, this was not a particularly difficult mission to ghost. Some
guards did re-light extinguished gas lights, but not always, and not many areas
needed to have the lights put out in order to traverse them. It was, however,
quite fun. Most of the AIs were reasonably sensitive (with the exception of the
one in the Mechanist basement), and the clues provided were all fair.
Oh, I classified the monkey in the cage at the top floor of the Mechanist
Building with plants and rats. It can look at you, react to your presence, but,
intrinsically, it does not alert.
So you judge. Was this a legit ghosting?:scratch:
Hexameron
12-05-2007, 01:02 PM
I can't
remember if I've played this mission but after reading your report I personally
think it is a bust...
... Only because of Ghosting Rule # 5:
Garrett must not cause suicides of AI or melees that intentionally cause AI to
attack each other...
If the AI's natural patrols led them to clash then it would be ok, but opening
doors for it to happen, and then waiting a while seems like a stretch. Without
knowing the mission intimately, though, I can only offer my opinion and not a
credible analysis.
Are the AI patrols that come across the child at any point in narrow
hallways/corridors? I mean, is there anyway to place
objects (crates?) in front of their projected path, perhaps at doorways or
narrow gaps to block them off? I know that's even more ridiculous as far as
claiming a legitimate ghost, but hey, Sneak did things like that in T2's Kidnap
:cool:
Well, I trust your ghosting expertise and that you've considered all feasible
options, but you might just want to let this one go as a failed attempt :(
goldsla
12-05-2007, 02:11 PM
I
personally think it is a bust...
... Only because of Ghosting Rule # 5:
Garrett must not cause suicides of AI or melees that intentionally cause AI to
attack each other...
If the AI's natural patrols led them to clash then it would be ok, but opening
doors for it to happen, and then waiting a while seems like a stretch.
Yes. I know. But rule 5's full text is: Garrett must not cause suicides of AI
or melees that intentionally cause AI to attack each other, with the exception
of rule 12.[italics mine]
So you are allowed to cause AIs to attack each other, just within the
restrictions of rule 12. That is what I was attempting to do. I did not alert
anybody or cause them to go searching outside of their normal patrol patterns.
I just made it possible for them to notice each other.
I figure that if an AI can alert to a destroyed prototype when it can't see it,
but only walks by on the other side of a large machine, I should be allowed to
let them see each other. Consider: I could exit through that door, leave it
open, complete some other part of the mission, return to discover that they had
fought each other in my absence, making it possible for me now to destroy the
prototype where it would not be noticed. Would that have been OK? I personally
do not see that would have been even an issue. So why does me hanging around
make a difference. I think what I did was exactly what rule 12 is all about.
No?
Are the AI patrols that come across the child at any point in narrow
hallways/corridors? I mean, is there anyway to place
objects (crates?) in front of their projected path, perhaps at doorways or
narrow gaps to block them off? I know that's even more ridiculous as far as
claiming a legitimate ghost, but hey, Sneak did things like that in T2's Kidnap
:cool:
I have had success doing such things with mechanicals (T2X's "Shadowing
the Enemy" mission comes to mind) but I would remove the crates after the
deeds were done to let the mechanicals resume their normal patrols. (Believe me
it can be tricky removing a blocking crate from an AI!). Here, removing the
crates (and it would have taken 3 or 4 to block the narrowest path, and that
many are not readily available) would have defeated the purpose and not to do
so would have defeated the spirit of ghosting, if that spirit is "The only
evidence of your presence should be the items you have stolen." **** No,
I'm afraid that was neither practical under the circumstances nor personally
acceptable.
Let's see what Peter says. If this is a bust, it is a bust. No biggie. The
reason I wrote it up was to find out what others think of the solution. If ya'll think it is no good, then it isn't. :)
Hexameron
12-05-2007, 04:06 PM
So you
are allowed to cause AIs to attack each other, just within the restrictions of
rule 12.
But I thought Rule 12 was aimed specifically at unusual incidences involving
game scripts: conversations that lead to an AI melee (Life of the Party),
aggressive AI's placed intentionally close so that they start a fight,
completing mission objectives that instigate AI melees, and other uncommon
circumstances in the mission design... :confused:
Maybe I'm interpreting this rule incorrectly, but I somehow don't think it
applies to your situation in "Durant": opening a door so that the AI
see each other and fight. I'm trying to think of when I encountered this and
T2's "Shipping and Receiving" comes to mind with the spider in the
shed on Davidson's ship. Opening the door can sometimes lead to one of the patrolling
thieves spotting the spider and starting a battle, and I can't remember from
any old OM ghost reports if this was reported as an okay. Personally, I made
sure it didn't happen when I ghosted "Shipping..."
Well, before we speculate anymore, I think you're right: let's wait for Peter
to chime in.
goldsla
12-05-2007, 05:30 PM
But I
thought Rule 12 was aimed specifically at unusual incidences involving game
scripts: conversations that lead to an AI melee (Life of the Party), aggressive
AI's placed intentionally close so that they start a fight, completing mission
objectives that instigate AI melees, and other uncommon circumstances in the
mission design... :confused:
Could be. I'm not exactly certain what "script" is intended to
represent. Clearly plot elements are included, such as the ones you mention.
But are inherent AI actions? I have over 30 years experience
in the software industry as a programmer and programming manager, and I know of
no single, commonly accepted definition for "script." And I'm sure
the gaming industry has its own special jargon of which I am blissfully
ignorant. So until the author speaks, we won't be certain.
But let us explore rule 5 exclusive of rule 12. Now just what does it say?
Garrett must not cause suicides of AI or melees that intentionally cause AI to
attack each other
Did I cause a suicide? No. (!!? What FM gave rise to this idea??)
Did I cause a melee? Maybe. I argue I didn't actively cause a melee. This
phrase prings to mind shooting a noisemaker arrow to
bring combatants together at a higher alert level. I did nothing to raise their
alert levels.
Did I intentionally cause an AI to attack each other? I intentionally opened a
door so that if they felt so inclined they could do so. But their inherent
nature (I read this as "script") caused them to attack when it was
triggered by events that I had no part in (i.e. their walking about) So I am
not so certain about causes. I have trouble with the concept of causing an AI
to do anything without raising the alert level (or possibly nudging . . . If I
nudged an AI so that it moved within range of another AI and it attacked it,
that would defininately be causing it to attack.)
Hair splitting. I am probably sunk from a rule 5 perspective. So I had better
hang my hat on rule 12. I just think that from a ghosting standpoint, I lived
up to the spirit of not raising any alerts directly. I don't know . . .
whatever.
Peter Smith
12-05-2007, 10:23 PM
Goldsla,
I think Hexameron's interpretation is correct. I
believe it is a bust, no matter what you do, unless you can kill the golden
child without causing the melee.
The script rule was designed to cover incidents like LOTP archers, where they
start something automatically without specific player action other than just
showing up in the vicinity or triggering something, say, by reading a book or
accomplishing an objective. With the broader definition of script you
suggested, any program is a script, the whole game is a script, and there could
be no busts.
In the spirit of the rule, you started the melee because you planned the event
to be a melee, and you directly caused it. That is first degree melee. Guilty
as charged. :)
If anything, discussions like these reinforce another commonly held belief by
strict ghosters that the script rule should never
have been allowed in the first place because it opens up arguments that have no
right or wrong answer. An example is the pages and pages of debate that
followed the release of Gumdrop's mission The Cistern. In that, you had to
throw a switch that filled a cistern with water. Some beasts were alive in the
cistern before the event, and they were drowned in the water afterward. I said
it was a script, as obviously it was, because the game does not provide for
real time water filling. It was an illusion. Others said that throwing the
switch caused the deaths. No matter what side you take, you can be right or
wrong.
My general approach is to call it a bust if you are stretching it.
goldsla
12-06-2007, 12:42 PM
I believe
it is a bust, no matter what you do, unless you can kill the golden child
without causing the melee.
Guilty as charged, then. Should I edit the post to reflect this opinion, or
leave it alone?
So far I appear to be zero for three in the debateable
call department. In Lord Alan's Factory I lean towards classifying tripped
traps as violiating the spirt of ghosting: "The
only evidence of your presence should be the items you have stolen." (I
also consider the use of moss arrows a viloation of
that spirit, and plan to report their use in the future.) However, I regard the
taking of personal notes on prior runs through a mission as not a violation of
rule 9: "No loot cheats or walkthroughs are allowed." Sigh. Diferences of opinion, I suppose, are not new to this
topic.
On the positive side, all of this debate and caring about the rules shows that
there is still honor among theives!:D
Hexameron
12-06-2007, 01:55 PM
I lean
towards classifying tripped traps as violiating the
spirt of ghosting: "The only evidence of your presence should be the items
you have stolen." (I also consider the use of moss arrows a viloation of that spirit, and plan to report their use in
the future.) However, I regard the taking of personal notes on prior runs
through a mission as not a violation of rule 9: "No loot cheats or
walkthroughs are allowed."
Traps are just too ambiguous to fall under the ghost bust category. What would
we do with T1's Bonehoard or "The Sword"? I
think there needs to be a fine technical rather than spiritual line for what
constitutes a ghost bust: alerts, damage dealt, kills/knockouts, visible
property damage, and clear rule-breaking that results from the player's
actions, not the storyline or mission design. That's where I felt the opposing
viewpoints on The Cistern were wrong. If Garrett flipped a switch that caused a
fireball to shoot out and kill the bugbeasts, it
would be a bust. But as Peter pointed out, the whole thing was an illusion, a
part of the mission design.
Obviously a ghost bust occurs if setting off a trap alerts AI. But we can't
speculate that triggering a trap breaks the spirit of ghosting. We could just
get crazy and say no opened doors, extinguished fires, or manipulated levers
because it serves as evidence that a thief was there.
Which reminds me, what do you guys think of picking up (destroying?) frobbable mushrooms? I consider this okay... but shooting a
broadhead into one of them somehow seems like a
property damage bust.
goldsla
12-06-2007, 02:14 PM
...We
could just get crazy and say no opened doors, extinguished fires, or
manipulated levers because it serves as evidence that a thief was there.
Which reminds me, what do you guys think of picking up (destroying?) frobbable mushrooms? I consider this okay... but shooting a
broadhead into one of them somehow seems like a
property damage bust.
It does get pretty crazy. That's one reason I prefer to avoid putting out
fires. (I'm also stingy about all consumables.) But I do not go so far as to
replace crates or keys. That is just a little too anal even for me. As to frobbable mushrooms, the only ones I've seen so far just
have their light extinguished, they remain right where they were. Do you think
they should be condered to be "broken" and
hence property damage? I classify that as the same as putting out a torch. If
that is not property damage, neither is extinguishing mushrooms. If they went
into your inventory, I would consider them loot and fair game for sure.
goldsla
12-06-2007, 07:50 PM
FM:
Hidden Agenda
Ghost - Success
Perfect Thief - Failure
Time - 03:30:53
Loot - 3228/3490
Pockets Picked - 6/8, Locks Picked: 18
Backstabs - 0 Knockouts - 0
Damage dealt - 0 Damage taken - 0
Healing taken - 0 Kills - 0
Secrets Found - 3/4
Comments:
Another great early mission.This one is from January
2002. It was written/designed by AsyluM (Mark Smith),
and was a great romp. I completed the ghost on my first run through the
mission.
For me it started out a little tense, with way too much light and way too
little shadow, until I got the feel for the way the AIs reacted. After that I
had no problems ghosting. Some of the Watchers required split second timing,
especially around the upper entrance to the vault, and the double Watchers in
the area with the drilling machine. But it was almost as though AsyluM had ghosting in mind when he developed it. I
shouldn't grouse after my earlier complaints about AIs that were too sensitive,
but this mission was almost too easy to ghost, not enough of a challenge.
Almost.
I think in a month or so I may give this mission another try, just to see if I
can find all the loot. I'm annoyed that I missed one of the secrets too. I'll
update this report if I succeed at that time.
Hexameron
12-07-2007, 01:50 PM
FM: House
of Random
Ghost - Success
Perfect Thief - Failed
Time - 01:33:15
Loot - 3152/3202
Pockets Picked - 12/14
Backstabs - 0 Knockouts - 0
Damage dealt - 0 Damage taken - 0
Healing taken - 0 Kills - 0
Secrets Found - 1/1
Comments - Although this is a contest mission, it feels large-scale and I spent
at least 4 hours on it. I was hoping to obtain a perfect thief but I think I
must have missed some 50 loot in the sewers or back in the beginning town area
because I searched the mansion like a madman. Once the 2400 loot and grabbing
the eye/hand objective is checked off, returning to the mission-start will end
the mission. So unfortunately I couldn't search for loot in the sewers.
This mission was a little difficult to ghost because just about every floor in
the mansion is made of tile. The numerous AI and unpredictable patrols are also
challenging to deal with. I confess I used more moss arrows than I normally
would in a mission. In addition to needing them for hitting lightswitches
at a distance, moss just made some areas less painful and reload intensive.
There are lots of optional objectives and hidden loot in this mission, too. I
found the only secret simply because I was hiding in the trophy room area
against the wall. I just happened to notice that the bugbeast
and crayman trophies could be highlighted; frobbing them both reveals a hidden gem.
The Eye and Hand of Glory are found on pedestals in the art gallery on the
second floor. Removing these items from their pedestals sets off an alarm. This
means that objects of significant weight need to be placed on the pedestals
before looting The Eye and the Hand. Two crates were conveniently placed in a
nearby storage room and they did the trick. The FM designer also placed other lootable items around the mission that could be used as
well, like a heavy golden skull and rocks. But I'm glad I used the crates
because there is a tiny gold ring underneath of them that I wouldn't have
noticed had I not picked up the crates. Speaking of rings, there is reading
material that talks about a bird that nabbed a ring and flew off with it
somewhere outside. I found this ring on a ledge outside of the third floor's
bathroom.
The mechanist room accessed from the third floor balconies is a peculiar place.
Flipping the lightswitch in here transports the
player to another isolated room. Flipping the switch in that room takes the
player to another one. It's a disorienting ride after all of the teleportation
into new rooms is done. The last room is an abandoned house with a haunt in the
basement.
Getting back to the mission start was difficult. Since the sewers I used at the
beginning to get to the mansion area were no longer accessible, the only
possible way to escape is by the front of the mansion with the non-functional
portcullis. There are some pipes that lead to a ledge on top of the portcullis.
Two keen-eyed archers are standing on a balcony connected to the mansion and
are gazing intently at the top of the ledge. It's possible to slink by them,
but the bigger problem was that dropping off of the ledge into the street
causes damage. My solution was to gently move off of the ledge surface until I
could just barely hang onto it. Then I dropped a bunch of my scrolls and
potions onto the ground. Aiming for these objects, I dropped off of the ledge
and hit my stacked notes and potions and avoided taking damage.
Hexameron
12-07-2007, 07:23 PM
FM: Into
the Maelstrom
Ghost - Success
Perfect Thief - Success
Time - 00:43:57
Loot - 1345/1345
Pockets Picked - 0/1
Backstabs - 0 Knockouts - 0
Damage dealt - 0 Damage taken - 0
Healing taken - 0 Kills - 0
Secrets Found - 3/3
Comments - This is a stunning and highly original contest FM that gave me the
chills. The maniacal-looking faces of the undead pirates and the reskinned
apparition with bloody gouged eyes was viscerally effective. The atmosphere as
a whole was quite scary, even reminisicent of
"The Cathedral of the Damned." Beyond the scares, though, the details
and quality of design put into this mission certainly gives it a shining
artistic value.
Ghosting the mission was a little irritating, though... at first. Moving around
on the main ship was hazardous and I reloaded many times simply because the
apparition who lays aft was a little quirky. Sometimes he would go on a very
brief second alert that I often barely noticed. I reloaded whenever I had
doubts about being seen or heard or not. I also had an annoying will-o-wisp to
be wary of, in addition to cramped spaces and deceiving shadows. Fortunately my
scrounging senses were at their best and I did not need to retrace my steps
back to the original ship for any loot; I had found all of it including the
little secret switch in the hold of the ship.
I was oblivious to the secret cliff with the Mantle of the State, which looked
like a huge jeweled amulet. But after mantling onto the Maelstrom ship, I
looked back and noticed a strange protrusion jutting out the side of the cavern
wall above the boulder in the sand. The author placed two rope arrows in the
mission, so I used one to get up to the cliff and retrieved the Mantle.
I spent the longest time trying to figure out how to activate the candle and
perform the ritual in the secret room of the Maelstrom. Since I found two fire
arrows, I took a risk by firing one into the candle... and sure enough this
triggered a script and checked off a bonus objective to free the undead of their
spell. It's interesting how we were just discussing "The Cistern"
drowned bugbeast scenario because this particular
situation fits into the same category of scripted deaths.
It's impossible to tell if shooting the fire arrow alerts anyone because the screen
goes white and everything went silent. The spectral rat that had been scurrying
around in the ritual room was dead (but in a different position than I last saw
him before the white screen), and all of the undead pirates and ghosts were
also dead. Since performing the ritual is NOT required, I of course opted to
leave it be. But had this been an objective, I would still claim a ghost
because this clearly falls under a circumstance involving a special script.
Anyway, since the final objectives told me to find a lifeboat and get to a safe
spot, I took the trouble of going back to the original ship to pick up one of
the rowboats there. I approached the ship's aft by swimming through the water
and used a rope arrow to climb up. The quirky apparition stands and paces next
to the helm, but I easily got my rowboat, climbed back down into the water by
rope, and made my way to the safe cave.
goldsla
12-14-2007, 06:40 PM
FM: The Hightowne Museum 1.1
Ghost - Success
Perfect Thief - Success
Time - 00:27:09
Loot - 1887/1887
Pockets Picked - 1/2, Locks Picked: 1
Backstabs - 0 Knockouts - 0
Damage dealt - 0 Damage taken - 0
Healing taken - 0 Kills - 0
Secrets Found - 0/0
Comments:
This mission was an entry in the second 64x64x64 mission contest. So the
mission space is tiny. That said, it was fun, if simple, to ghost. The only
"tricky" bit in the mission is to get the Serpent's Eye gemstone from
the security vault it is residing in. And that wasn't all that tricky. The
humorous labling of the museum exhibits was, perhaps,
the most entertaining aspect of the mission. In all, it was a nice diversion
for a half an hour. Someone new to ghosting might like this as a managable mission for a first ghosting attempt. And no
spiders!
Hexameron
12-15-2007, 03:18 PM
FM: Freedo Finds One
Ghost - Success (Chemical)
Perfect Thief - Failed
Time - 01:13:33
Loot - 4259/4979
Pockets Picked - 6/7
Backstabs - 0 Knockouts - 0
Damage dealt - 0 Damage taken - 0
Healing taken - 0 Kills - 0
Secrets Found - 3/4
Comments - The author of this FM stated that it was his or her first mission.
While there are some dromed architectural flaws and
crude designing, the mission actually has a variety of places to explore and a
spacious layout that was fun to traverse and ghost. Indeed, the author says in
the darkloader notes: "If you like to Ghost
missions, you might be disappointed. I haven't tried it, but being my first
mission, I didn't design it for ghosting." Well... the majority of this
mission was easy to ghost. But there are some major problems with declaring
this a ghost because of two "New Objectives" that are triggered when
reading certain scrolls/books.
Preliminary Notes
-Almost every idle guard will pivot in at least two directions, making tough
ghosting spots a breeze. I almost got spoiled from expecting every idle guard
to rotate.
-The author likes to hide loot in odd places (loose coins on insignificant
ledges, purses and statues under seemingly ordinary furniture). And some
regular objects are actually loot items).
-There are at least 4 "New Objectives" triggered by reading scrolls
and books, so without reading these, the mission could have been ghosted
without a chemical success (which I'll explain soon).
Ghosting Problems
One ghosting issue I had was at the front lobby of the bank with the watcher.
An objective was actually to disable these watchers in the bank, but to do so
requires using the lift next to the watcher in this lobby. His pivot radius is
wide, so I was able to hide under his nose. The patrolling archer was
oblivious, but I had to shoot moss onto the metal lift because of the desk
obstructing my path. Since I was under the watcher and had to make a dash,
jumping over the desk was the only option and having moss was vital.
Using the lift to move down to the basement posed a problem because of the idle
(non-pivoting) guard down there. He always saw me as I lowered down on the
elevator; the solution was to quickly strafe to my left and drop off of the
elevator into the darkness. Successfully getting back up to the lobby with the active
watcher required randomness and reloads. Since I can't guess where his face
might be aiming, I simply quick-saved and kept taking the elevator upwards
until I came up while his face was turned. Once these watchers are disabled
from the attic, I didn't have to deal with this sticky spot again.
An important make-or-break situation with regards to my ghost success also
occurs with a "New Objective" that I chose to not trigger. Reading
the scroll on the desk inside the bank teller's area activated an objective to
find a missing ring. This ring is actually in a pool of water under the
previously discussed elevator. There is simply no way to drop into this pool of
water without alerting multple AI, so I reloaded and
continued the mission without reading that scroll.
Chemical Success
Again, these darned "New Objectives" kept amassing after seemingly
every reading material I stuck my nose in. One of these objectives was to find
a Hand of Glory (the "hand" in this FM had a different name). The
hand is found in some abandoned Lost Cityesque ruins
with motion-detecting light sources. The hand is actually located in a room
accessible only by dropping down through the ceiling with the help of an
already-placed rope arrow. Unfortunately, a (non-pivoting) haunt is staring in
the area of the rope and the crack in the ceiling.
Scaling down the rope through the crack in the ceiling triggers the blue-gem
light source, and there was my problem: how to get down into this room without
alerting the haunt. I managed to shoot moss arrow onto the ground and drop down
into the room without disturbing him but it took a few reloads. It is
impossible, however, to get back onto the rope and leave the room without
alerting him; there is simply too much light. Fortunately, the author left an invis potion in this room and I used it to make my escape.
Again, had I not triggered new objectives, I wouldn't have had to visit these
ruins.
Perfect Thieving the mission, by the way, did not seem feasible. There was a
brightly lit tavern with a guard and a barmaid standing in front of a large
assortment of loot. I could have doused all of the torches inside and perhaps
some nudging may have been required, but I had trouble finding the rest of the
loot. Even on a blackjack run I was still about 160 loot short and while I'm
usually meticulous about loot, I had a feeling I would need to scrape every
cobble-stone, bush, window ledge and bathroom stall to find loose coins and I
wasn't in the mood :cool:. I'm sure the one missing secret would have helped
but I couldn't find it :scratch: