FMs - Ghost/Perfect Thief
Results (Part 6)
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1. 25th Dec 2007, 04:33 #126
Hexameron
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FM: Sunset in Darkdale - (SunsetInDarkdale.zip)
Ghost - Success
Perfect Thief - Failed
Time - 0:59:48
Loot - 415/425
Pockets Picked - 1/3
Backstabs - 0 Knockouts - 0
Damage dealt - 0 Damage taken - 0
Healing taken - 0 Kills - 0
Secrets Found - 0/0
Comments - Conceptually, I thought this FM was well done, but its technical defects and absurd loot placement were a little irksome. I tried really hard to get all the loot so I could claim a PT, but after numerous attempts to get two pieces of loot (worth 5), I deemed it impossible.
General Notes
-I doused two torches near the unarmed bluecoat and noblelady so I could climb the ladder without being detected. This was entirely necessary since obtaining 400 loot is an objective and I needed what was in the bedroom above the ladder.
-To get inside Lady Louisa's Place, I had to douse the two gas lamps against the door. After this was done, I could run to the counter while crouched and continue to strafe around it while ducking. Fortunately, the counter was high enough that I could avoid being seen by the counter lady.
-Many areas containing loot in this city mission were often hard to find; some were accessible by using a rope arrow (many open windows on buildings for instance) and many doors looked locked but were in fact already open. This was annoying since the majority of the doors in the mission were locked and could not be picked. I made the routine of approaching every door with lockpick ready to go, and when I heard the two dead clicks, I moved on. I often missed important areas because of this: I tried to pick a door that wasn't locked and assumed it was... ergh
-The primary item of loot in this mission was almost always a single gold coin worth 5. Therefore, 400 loot doesn't seem like so little after picking up a single 5 value gold coin one at a time. Some of these coins were incredibly difficult to find: the coin under the bread by the helmeted guard; coins behind banners in little niches; two coins on the marketplace tables...
-I could not get the copper coin stack through the open window early in the mission without alerting a nearby guard. This guard is standing by the factory and his peripheral vision can see the open window. No matter how many times I tried to jump onto my rope and climb up, the area was too bright and the guard would go on second alert.
-I could not get the gold coin under the two spiders in the sewers. I almost thought I had this but eventually gave up. I tried inching up towards the spiders and leaning forward to grab the coin, but it was too far; any closer and I would alert them. I then had the idea to moss the floor under these spiders and jump over them. I actually got it to work, jumped over them with only a first alert and I safely nabbed the coin! But trying to jump back over them failed and I must have tried 20 times. It was frustrating, but at least I barely had enough loot to complete my objective.
-I was really peeved when I finished all my objectives and made it through the garden to the mission end. There is an invisible apparition standing in front of a locked gate, which bars the way to the mission exit. The gate can be picked and I figured out by trial and error which way this invisible AI was facing. I could pick the gate but I could not get through it becase the damn apparition was blocking the door way! By luck or by creative thinking I was able to shoot a rope arrow into a nearby wooden shed. I couldn't mantle onto the roof of the shed but I could leap onto a nearby stone wall surrounding the gardens. I scaled the wall, dropped down on top of the open gate door and then softly fell to the grass and got the "Objective Completed" message. I know the author put this invisible apparition in front of the gate so it would be a confrontational surprise, but it didn't foil this determined ghoster
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2. 26th Dec 2007, 05:52 #127
Hexameron
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FM: The Quiet Heat - (The_Quiet_Heat_v1_2.zip)
Ghost - Success
Perfect Thief - Failed
Time - 0:51:22
Loot - 3550/3940
Pockets Picked - 6/13
Backstabs - 0 Knockouts - 0
Damage dealt - 0 Damage taken - 0
Healing taken - 0 Kills - 0
Secrets Found - 0/0
Comments - This mission is only playable on normal difficulty which is labeled "Interesting" while Hard and Expert are "N/A." Ghosting was a breeze and I had no problems worth reporting. I also think I perfect thieved the mission even though I couldn't technically snag all the loot. I came across five pieces of unfrobbable loot that, when added up, should give me the loot maximum: three gold wines (150), a large purple/gold vase (200), and a green vase (40).
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3. 26th Dec 2007, 19:02 #128
goldsla
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Red Face (Embarrassed) A Love Story III (V 1.0)
FM: A Love Story III (V 1.0) (ALoveStory3v1_0.zip)
Ghost - Success (TKO Fail??)
Perfect Thief - Nope
Time - 03:12:06
Loot - 4972/5349
Pockets Picked - 5/6, Locks Picked: 4
Backstabs - 0 Knockouts - 1
Damage dealt - 1 Damage taken - 0
Healing taken - 0 Kills - 0
Secrets Found - 1/2
Comments:
Let me get straight to the problematic issue: is knocking out an animated Dew Drop a bust? It shows up in the stats as a KO and 1 damage point. The objective is to "... take Dew Drop to the Smoothie shop." But the only way to pick her up is to KO her. This is a doll we are talking about, an animated, bouncing about, straw doll. This could be a bust on either of two technical grounds: a KO of an animate object or property damage!!
So the issue for me is from the commentary on the Ghost Rules:
It is not acceptable; however, to incur a ghost bust that the player thinks is "necessary" to meet another objective. For example, it is not allowed to KO an AI or slash a banner simply because they stand in the way of meeting another objective, such as stealing something.
If this is truly either property damage or a KO, then I think this must be considered a bust. I, for one, do not consider it property damage, even though the doll stops dancing about after being hit. That was the point after all. It had to be stopped so that it could be picked up. But is it a true KO? The rule about KOs is,
No combat damage may be dealt or taken and no knockouts or kills of any kind are allowed, whether or not they show up in the final stats, with the exception of rule 11
(Rule 11 is the explicit objective exception rule, which I think does not apply here, since the objective is not to KO dear little Ms. Drop.) Does the KO rule apply to a doll? Technically, she was animated. I throw myself on the mercy of the court. I seem to recall a similar issue with Bernice in The Den. About that mission, Peter said
As for The Den, I never gave too much thought to the Berenice dilemma. I am one for liberal interpretation. The rule was intended to avoid a situation like, you must steel something, and the only way to do it is to alert or kill someone. That is clearly a bust. The Berenice objective is not stated explicitly, but it is stated almost explicitly, essentially as a riddle. It would be no fun if it said to BJ Berenice and dump her in the pit. The PC way is to avoid triggering the objective. The Smith way is to say who cares, and go ahead with it. Again, it is another reportable incident. I would claim success.
In that spirit, I report it and claim a qualified success. I wish there were a way to avoid triggering the objective, and so avoid the issue, but the objective is there at the start of the mission.
There are ghosting ways to get at all but 37 gold of the loot that I found. Two shopkeepers get very tetchy if you steal the coins from their money boxes. So tetchy that I could not leave those stores without the shopkeeper alerting if I take the loot. It was odd. The shopkeeper does not mind you being in plain view or stealing any non-loot items, but take any money and they go hypersensitive. They do not alert if you stand still, but if you move much after taking the money, they will nail you. So I left that 37g alone. I am still looking for the remaining 340g. It bugs me that I cannot find it.
The Bank was tricky. You had to notice that around back of the bank there is a window that looks different. When you jump to it, it turns out to be a secret back entrance to the Bank.
Really, from a ghosting perspective, this was not hard. No patrolling guards on the streets. They all stay in their police stations / jails. The townsfolk don't mind you wandering about (except the Bank tellers). The hard part about the mission was figuring out where things were and what to do about them. Ghosting made spots a little harder to navigate, but nothing really tough.
At the start of the mission there is back entrance to the jail which you have to move a barrel to just the right spot so that you can mantle in without a stationary guard seeing you. You can get into the jail more easily by timing a slow watcher, but the barrel approach was more challenging, and hence more fun.
This mission had no rope arrows and not as much climbing opportunities as the prior Love Story FMs. I missed the climbing.
Just found another 100g
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4. 26th Dec 2007, 19:32 #129
Hexameron
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I'm not sure how much weight an amateur ghoster's opinion carries for you, but while I haven't played this mission, I understand your dilemma pretty well, and I say it's not a bust. Please clarify one thing, though: you say this Dewdrop is an animate object but does it have any AI properties? Does it alert or attack? If not, then this is clearly not a bust at all because you're manipulating an object (blackjacking) in order to pick it up and I don't think it constitutes property damage.
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5. 26th Dec 2007, 20:52 #130
goldsla
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Originally Posted by Hexameron
Please clarify one thing, though: you say this Dewdrop is an animate object but does it have any AI properties? Does it alert or attack?
As near as I can tell it does not alert or attack. You should try the mission just to see a moving Dew Drop. My respect for her versatility goes up all the time.
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6. 27th Dec 2007, 05:56 #131
Peter_Smith
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Hexameron's analysis is correct.
It is not a bust. You have an explicit objective to carry her. Obviously that can be done only by BJing her first. A fundamental aspect of the game is that you cannot carry a conscious person. It would be redundant to word the objective as "first BJ her and then carry her" just to satisfy some persnickety wording of a ghost rule. This situation is not at all the same as "I had to slash the banner to get the loot," etc. Those types of "necessities" are not allowed.
Property damage is not implied by the application of force. It means something breaks and you can see the pieces or equivalent.
My suggestion is to try to understand the intent of the rules, not to get hung up on the language. The intent is don't be noticed and satisfy the objectives.
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7. 27th Dec 2007, 07:08 #132
goldsla
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Thanks
Originally Posted by Peter Smith
Hexameron's analysis is correct.
It is not a bust. ...
My suggestion is to try to understand the intent of the rules, not to get hung up on the language. The intent is don't be noticed and satisfy the objectives.
Thanks for the help with understanding the rules. It was the damage point and the KO statistic that concerned me. I really do not like pulling out the ol' blackjack.
There is also a "scripted" bit in this FM if you steal a smoothie from a soda fountain customer. She screams "Thief" as though alerting but does not actually alert or take other action. In correspondence with the author, John Denison, he says "Since the reaction is staged she does not actually get alerted. She simply performs her soundbite and then sits contently. Alert level stays at zero." I had not mentioned it before, but thought I would now, just as illustration that there may be a hard line between an alert and a script in the code, but one can be made to look like the other to the player. In this case, I decided to not steal the drink, just to be safe, and ask the author about it later.
I am trying hard to be an ethical ghoster. It was much easier when I was playing by my own personal rules, before I discovered that others had already blazed a very similar trail and put up some sign posts that said thus far but no further if you want to play like us. Not having been involved in the discussions as to where those signs were to be posted, it sometimes is hard to see the intended boundaries. So thanks again Peter and Hexameron. I don't mean to be a pest about the rules; I just don't want to mislead anyone about my ghosting of the missions.
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8. 27th Dec 2007, 07:44 #133
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No problem,, Goldsla. I did not mean to be uppity either. Ask away, whenever you have a question.
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9. 27th Dec 2007, 09:24 #134
Hexameron
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FM: Ghost Town - (GhostTown.zip)
Ghost - Failed
Time - 0:33:06
Loot - 440/440
Pockets Picked - 0/1
Backstabs - 0 Knockouts - 0
Damage dealt - 0 Damage taken - 0
Healing taken - 0 Kills - 0
Secrets Found - 0/0
Causes of Failure
-Cannot sneak into church without setting off a trigger that creates a flashbomb explosion, which damages and alerts the apparitions inside.
Comments - This is a small FM designed to evoke a scary atmosphere for Halloween (when the FM was released). I'm sure the author didn't mean for the player to take the mission seriously, especially as a ghosting challenge, but I did. Had I known the mission wasn't ghostable, I wouldn't have spent so much time and effort ghosting one particular area involving two spiders, which I'll illustrate in a moment.
General Notes
-The main objectives in this mission are to find various named Dewdrops (goldsla would have liked this mission ). These Dewdrop dolls are somewhat magical and emit their own lightsource; they are found in various rooms around the city streets.
-Opening the footlockers in the streets caused some flying skulls (like apparition projectiles) to fall to the ground, but no one was alerted except some rats.
-Opening one footlocker in a room scripted a nearby glass window to break, so I reloaded and avoided that. The footlocker was empty anyway.
-There are some invisible AI in this mission that could both be ghosted. The first is an invisible apparition who stands in the streets. I could dart by it with only a first alert. The second invisible AI is a treebeast and it was tougher to sneak by. It patrols briskly through a bright area around a sewer hole that the player must get into. Since it was invisible, I had to rely on my ears to gauge when its back was turned. With some good judgment and luck, I managed to get into the sewer without alerting it.
-There are four small green spiders in these sewers all clustered around a mushroom (what is it with author's always placing green spiders next to these mushrooms?). This is a ghastly sight for a ghoster. By the looks of it, this area just oozes "Ghost Bust" and yet I ghosted it in one try. All it took was crouching and hugging the left side of the sewer wall; even inches away from the spiders' butts, I could slowly move by with only a few first alerts.
-Getting the house key from one of the freshly dug graves proved to be hazardous. Dropping down into this grave causes a gas mine to explode and damage the player. Fortunately, I was able to crouch and slowly move off of the edge of the hole until I could lean and grab the key.
-Since one of my objectives was to claim 400 loot, I had no choice but to enter the church. However, as soon as the player walks through the door way, a flash of light occurs like a flashbomb and damages two invisible apparitions inside. They go on alert and immediately attack. So I grabbed the loot inside, dodged flying skulls and ran back to the mission start, alerting two spiders that I previously spent so much time trying to sneak by.
And here is my story regarding them:
A [Spider] Barrier True that Blocketh Dust and [Garrett]
I'm sure the FM author thought he was cleverly annoying the arachnophobics of the Thief community by placing two big spiders in a tunnel with a mushroom lighting up the place. These spiders are almost flush against each other and their legs touch the walls of the tunnel; they are literally AI blockades. But the author must not have read Lytha's ghost report on T1's LC to know that "A stationary, unalerted spider sees with his butt." He positioned these spiders so that their faces were aimed at the player moving into the tunnel. So in reality they were actually facing away from the oncoming player.
I tried dozens of times to sneak by these spiders with conventional means. I tried crouching and squeezing may through them; I tried hugging each wall and moving slowly; I tried quickly running past them... but to no avail. I even used a zombie head I found and tossed it to the ground so that I would have a cushion when trying to jump over them. All of my attempts alerted at least one spider. So what next?
Well, I had no moss arrows and there were no crates at this point in the mission, but I had a small repertory of objects to use: a zombie head, a healing potion, a papyrus, and a skeleton ribcage. I had a dewdrop doll, but with its light source property, I might as well have dropped a lantern or flare onto the ground. I also noticed one of those decaying barrels that can actually be moved by constantly running into it and pushing it forward. So here was my idea: move the barrel close to the spider and maybe I could jump onto it and use my other objects to build a two-part bridge (sort of like getting to the footlocker by the spiders in T1's Bafford's Manor).
My bridge idea did not come to the fruition I thought it would. Moving the barrel was a dangerous and delicate process. If I moved it too close to the spider's body, it would make a small "crate dropping" sound and put both spiders on second alert. However, I tried dropping my zombie head and papyrus near the spider's legs to act as a soft cushion for the barrel. From this point, I was able to push the barrel until it miraculously moved onto the zombie head and papyrus! I now tried to get onto the barrel and see what I could do, but everytime I jumped onto the barrel, the barrel fell off of the zombie head and made a loud sound.
After much tinkering and reloading, I managed to get my skeleton ribcage under the barrel and then place my zombie head and papyrus strategically against the edge of the barrel and the spider's body. I now had a bedding of objects on the ground to cushion the barrel and keep it from hitting the ground. From this point, I could push the barrel even further into the spider without making noise until the barrel moved up against the spider's legs and suddenly tilted diagonally. The barrel now looked like it was about to tip over, but it remained there perfectly bolstered by my support beams of a zombie head and a skeleton ribcage. I jumped on top of the barrel and was literally now over the spider's body! The excitement lead to ecstatic satisfaction when I crouched and gently slipped to the ground without alerting any of the spiders. I took screenshots of my various stages to accomplish this, but for some reason they didn't save to my Thief directory.
Imagine my disappointment when I had to deal with a scripted bust with those apparitions at the church . Even on my way back to the mission start, I was proud to see my awkward looking barrel with its ribcage underneath and zombie head propped against it. But because of alerting those two apparitions, I decided to forget about ghosting the spiders on my return; I ran through and alerted them so I could get back to the mission start.
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10. 27th Dec 2007, 14:14 #135
goldsla
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Unhappy Sympathy for the Ghoster
Originally Posted by Hexameron
These Dewdrop dolls are somewhat magical and emit their own lightsource; they are found in various rooms around the city streets. ...
Cool!
Originally Posted by Hexameron
... what is it with author's always placing green spiders next to these mushrooms?
These authors are all evil!
Originally Posted by Hexameron
... I had no choice but to enter the church. However, as soon as the player walks through the door way, a flash of light occurs like a flashbomb and damages two invisible apparitions inside. They go on alert and immediately attack.
I take it as read that there is no alternate route, or it would have the same result? Bummer.
Originally Posted by Hexameron
The excitement lead to ecstatic satisfaction when I crouched and gently slipped to the ground without alerting any of the spiders. I took screenshots of my various stages to accomplish this, but for some reason they didn't save to my Thief directory.
Are you sure? Maybe do a search on .pcx? I'd love to see this 'bridge'.
Originally Posted by Hexameron
Imagine my disappointment when I had to deal with a scripted bust with those apparitions at the church . Even on my way back to the mission start, I was proud to see my awkward looking barrel with its ribcage underneath and zombie head propped against it.
Been there (well not there there -- I haven't played the mission -- but similar late ghost busts after a particularly clever ghosting bit), got the T-shirt (there's an idea ... a Thief ghoster T-shirt ... www.zazzle.com lets you custom design shirts ... I've done a few simple ones ...) , so I truly sympathize. Major bummer!
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11. 28th Dec 2007, 02:04 #136
Hexameron
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Are you sure? Maybe do a search on .pcx? I'd love to see this 'bridge'.
I don't know what to make of my screenshot problem. At the moment I'm playing Thief 2 on someone else's computer, a newer one with Windows Vista, but I can't imagine that has something to do with why my screenshots either won't appear or are not being saved in the Thief directory. I searched .pcx and could find only one file that's unrelated to my screenshots. I know I took them ingame because the screen paused for a split second like it's always done for me. I'll try to access my saved game for this FM on my own computer and get those screenshots.
...www.zazzle.com lets you custom design shirts...
I thought I was in the minority as someone who frequently uses zazzle, although I primarily go to their website to make custom posters.
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12. 28th Dec 2007, 02:52 #137
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FM: Old Tribe - (fbt-oldtribe1.zip)
Ghost - Success
Perfect Thief - Failed
Time - 0:35:20
Loot - 0/150
Pockets Picked - 0/1
Backstabs - 0 Knockouts - 0
Damage dealt - 0 Damage taken - 6
Healing taken - 0 Kills - 0
Secrets Found - 0/0
Comments - This is one of the most mysterious and wacky FM's I've ever played. Sometimes I felt like I just wanted to call this a ghost bust because everything that made sense to me in the technical realm of Thief was suddenly turned on its head.
General Notes
-The idle frogbeasts next to the pond do not see, hear, or attack. I tried repeatedly hitting one with my blackjack and it just took the damage but made no noise.
-My 6 damage taken is totally unavoidable and due to having to squeeze between two gas plants. I tried stacking my huge inventory of books, journals, scrolls and other objects that were never explained in the mission, so I could jump over the plants. Everything failed and I could not slip by (or slip back) without taking damage.
-I didn't really inspect the items in the player's inventory too well, but the keeper book and the journals were excessively long and I didn't feel like reading 10 pages of text. I don't know what the Keeper Medallions, the dagger, the journal and mace, or the other books were for. Maybe this mission is part of a series that I overlooked.
-There are two treebeasts who must have infinite hitpoints because they continuously battle each other at a deadend part of the forest. It wasn't necessary to get close to them so I didn't.
-Almost all of the AI in this mission had their sound bytes tampered with. Most of the time no one emitted any first alert sounds or even mutterings, whistlings and other such normal sounds. Third alerts were also inaudible.
-For some reason walking close to the mechanist camp triggered a "Garrett taking damage" sound byte but no damage was dealt. One of the mechanists' voice had been replaced with that of a prisoner. A first alert was thus, "Nooooo" and then "all gone, all gone." Another mechanist had some other AI sound database and kept sniffing like an apebeast. Yet the female mechanist was her perfect self with "If there be a tree, fell it, if there be a heretic, suffer it to live no longer" etc.
-I don't know what broke the spell barring the way through the forest. I'll assume that after I entered the high priest's room and read his material, the magical barrier dropped. Maybe.
-I stacked my fruits and notes next to the apebeast guarding the treehouse so I could leap behind him. In addition to the idle apebeast, one of those large pagan torches was blocking my path. It seemed impossible to sneak through the entrance with all of these obstacles, so I stacked my inventory and maneuvered into the entrance. I later noticed that there was a vine dangling from the second floor that I could have used. I hope I'm not going blind .
-The most hilarious but totally puzzling thing I've ever encountered in a mission occurred in the treehouse. The apebeasts' first alerts were predominantly Benny guard voices, but they were often incorrect sound bytes. A first alert was: "Into the open you villain!" and "I'm hit! Help! Help!". I was laughing out loud also when I passed one apebeast that had a female servant voice: "Ok, quit taffing with me!" and "I don't like this!" even though it was a first alert for an apebeast.
-Sneaking into the room with the dewdrop doll (here we go again) was a little tough. The sitting apebeast here (also with a female servant voice) was pretty sensitive. Darting beyond the entrance of the room always yielded a second alert; somehow, though, hugging the left side of the tunnel that leads into the room is the safe spot. Running quickly inside from here didn't even trigger a first alert.
-The portal in this mission was not explained very well. It was the last objective and turned out to be a sinking floor panel back at the mission start. To get there I had to sneak by two problematic spiders. As a frustrated Benny would say after glancing at a doused torch: "Not again!"
-The first spider patrolled through a narrow semi-brightly lit cave tunnel. There was no way to easily sneak by the spider, as its patrol had a back-and-forth motion. My only option was to hug the spider's right side and strafe around it when it turned.
-The second spider behaved like nothing I had seen before. I guess the author gave the spider a pivotting property because while the spider was stationary, it kept constantly turning in circles, first in a clockwise and then in a counter-clockwise motion. Through some experimentation, I learned that even in this pivotting state, a spider still "sees with his butt" in Lytha's own inimitable words. Therefore, I could sneak through as long as the spider's rear was facing away from me.
-I have no idea where the 150 loot is .
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13. 28th Dec 2007, 16:50 #138
Hexameron
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FM: The Mountain Monastery - (bergkloster.zip)
Ghost - Success
Perfect Thief - Failed
Time - 01:29:56
Loot - 3592/4037
Pockets Picked - 5/12
Backstabs - 0 Knockouts - 0
Damage dealt - 0 Damage taken - 0
Healing taken - 0 Kills - 5
Secrets Found - 3/3
Comments - I always enjoy playing Christine's FM's. Her Night Falcon series provided many nights of entertainment and the quality of her work always shows. According to the darkloader notes, Christine almost abandoned ever completing this mission. It's smaller than her usual large-scale mansion-type missions, but I had to retrace my steps several times, so it didn't feel short.
General Notes
-Since I started with only 5 water arrows, I decided to save the brightly lit pub for last. I wasn't even sure if I would attempt it based on the amount of light I would have to deal with. Once I finished with everything at the monastery, I hit the place on my way back to the mission start. I doused all the torches, though the chandelier candles cannot be doused, and I grabbed the loot inside.
-One thing I didn't like was that I had to frob a corpse to complete an objective and also trigger a "New Objective." The original objective is to find the "meeting place" with the High Priest. I was thinking along the lines of T2's "Eavesdropping" and thought it would be at the monastery. I only learned after reading the priest's diary that he must have been killed. Then I remembered a hammerite priest's corpse I noticed on the way to the monastery. I initially thought this was a zombie but after returning to the body, it turned out to be a corpse. Frobbing it checks off the objective and then creates a new one.
-I actually had a tough time ghosting the monastery. The floors were predominantly tiled and the patrols were thick. I didn't use any water arrows because I felt like I needed to save them for more important areas.
-I had to broach the rooms on the second floor by one side at a time. That is, I could not find an adequate break in the two hammerite patrols to get to the other side via the second floor. I had to go back downstairs and make my way to the other staircase on the opposide side of the monastery.
-I don't think perfect thief is possible because snatching the two gold candles on the altar was not happening for me. Even with most of the torches doused, there was an unknown light source in addition to a hammerite priest next to the altar. Since this was surely going to stop my chances of perfect thieving, I decided not to make my customary inspection for all loot in the mission.
-I read a book in a nobleman's house earlier in the mission about poisonous and dangerous fish in the pond, but I didn't encounter any problems with them . They looked innocent and acted like oblivious rats.
-One of the objectives is to destroy the portal near the haunts in the subterranean cave. To do this, one needs the Holy Hammer in the monastery's crypt. Sneaking by the haunts in here was a breeze, as opposed to the challenges of the hammerite monastery. When I returned to the cave to destroy the portal, I wasn't sure how to do it. Nevertheless, I tried chucking the holy hammer against the red smokey portal and that did it; the portal vanished. Additionally, once the portal was destroyed, the haunts in the cave died instantly, hence the 5 kills that appeared in my stats. I'm not sure why only 5, though. If I remember correctly, there are 3 haunts in the subterranean cave and 3 in the crypt. Did one survive?
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14. 28th Dec 2007, 22:01 #139
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FM: Lost Souls - (LostSoulsV1_3a.zip)
Ghost - Success
Perfect Thief - Success
Time - 00:31:35
Loot - 2140/2140
Pockets Picked - 4/5
Backstabs - 0 Knockouts - 0
Damage dealt - 0 Damage taken - 0
Healing taken - 0 Kills - 0
Secrets Found - 0/3
Comments - This FM is a real gem. It's small, but it provided a formidable ghosting challenge and featured a nicely done story. It was also one of the few missions I've played in which I enjoyed reading every scroll and book related to the plot. The rainy atmosphere (causing floods in certain parts of the mission) was also personally fitting for me because I just played it during a rainy and stormy afternoon in real life.
General Notes
-The light gem was tinted to be black and white and the health shields were changed to look like water droplets to fit in with the mood of the mission. I generally dislike any changes made to the light gem but I've encountered worse.
-The outside of the manor can be pretty rough when ghosting. There are unexpected lightning strikes that light up the entire area and moving on the watery ground is impossible without alerting guards. The only mode of stealthy travel is by using the stone ledges bordering the perimeter of the manor.
-Sneaking through the one hallway on the first floor of the manor is the main ghosting problem. Often there were only a few pockets of darkness to stay safely in. Hiding anywhere in the hallway itself is close to impossible, although one can safely crouch on one of the plant tables (next to the music room). This hallway is cramped and contains one patrolling guard and one idle (pivotting) guard. Thanks to the plant table, I was better able to cope with the sticky situation of getting by.
-Taking the little pagan girl out of the pantry was also an issue for me. When I'm ghosting, it is customary to shut doors. I often leave doors open when I have yet to explore them; open doors are like markers for me and closed ones always indicate I've been there. So when I entered the pantry and got my "New Objective" to take the unconscious pagan girl out, I was in trouble. This basement with the pantry is almost completely submerged and dropping the body of the girl would kill her and violate the "Don't kill anyone" objective. I had to reload and open all of the doors so my path was not obstructed.
-I decided to enter the locked bathroom to satisfy my optional objective of finding Carolina. Her body was on the ground but she was neither dead nor alive (her corpse only highlighted and could not be manipulated). When I picked up a ring on the floor by the shower, I received a checked bonus objective of finding all of the loot.
-I don't know why I missed 3 secrets, but I'll wager this is a mistake because I scrutinized every room in this mission.
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15. 29th Dec 2007, 04:50 #140
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FM: Mystic Gems I: Unlucky Soul - (mystic_gems_part1.zip)
Ghost - Success
Perfect Thief - Success
Time - 01:13:04
Loot - 2500/2500
Pockets Picked - 8/8
Backstabs - 0 Knockouts - 0
Damage dealt - 0 Damage taken - 0
Healing taken - 0 Kills - 0
Secrets Found - 2/2
Comments - A straightforward and painless mission to ghost. I had no major problems to report and I found all of the loot on a first run. The only difficulty I experienced was getting the loot in the kitchen with the patrolling servant. I ended up jumping onto the counter and hiding in various patches of shadow around the room.
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16. 1st Jan 2008, 17:59 #141
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Unhappy A Love Story IV (V 1.0)
FM: A Love Story IV (V 1.0) (LS41.zip)
Ghost - Fail
Perfect Thief - Fail
Time - 03:59:29
Loot - 1578/1918
Pockets Picked - 1/3, Locks Picked: 11
Backstabs - 0 Knockouts - 40
Damage dealt - 88 Damage taken - 0
Healing taken - 0 Kills - 2
Secrets Found - 3/3
Comments:
There are two problems from a ghosting perspective:
o Getting John to the City Gate without alerting all those monkey-men.
o Getting into the fence’s house without alerting the two AIs standing in front of it under a street lamp.
John is a friend of Garrett's who has been kidnapped by a tribe of monkey-men. [If you believe that the prior Love Story FMs are actually part of the same story, then they kidnapped him with ransom in mind. Which seems a might sophisticated for monkey-men to my mind.] In any event, your primary task is to free John and get him safely to the city gate. John is unconcious when you find him, but unfrobbable, so there is no way to carry him. You have to revive him with a water arrow. But then he runs like a madman for the exit. Unfortunately he alerts the monkey-men in his unthinking dash, and eventually they kill him unless you do something. So that is bust #1.
Bust #2 is an unapproachable door, behind which is a dagger required to satisfy another objective. In front of the door is a lamp. On either side of the door, facing each other, lit by the lamp, are two AIs who are prone to attack anything that comes near. There is no back entance.
* * * U P D A T E * * *
Jan 3, 2008
In an email exchange with John Denison, the FM author, he says that
The light at the fence's house will turn off for about two seconds every minute. It isn't a quick flashing light. It's actually being turned on and off by an AI in a blue room instead of the conventional animated light.
So, I tried reloading to 3 different spots in playing the mission, and at none of them did the lamppost light turn off for as much as a fraction of a second. To be sure, I waited for a full 5 minutes at the lamppost after each reload. Finally, I restarted the mission and ran straight there, even getting out off the city gate area before the chase began. Voila! Now I had a light that turned on and off. Since I was ghosting the whole mission up to freeing John, I am certain that I did not interfere with any AI at any of my reload points. It just never did its job during my playing of the mission. In any event, when the mission is behaving as intended, it should be possible to ghost getting to and from the fence's house. The problem remains with getting John past the monkey-men, however.
* * * * * * * * * * *
Other than that, this was a fun mission. The section of the city that you explore is a slum neighborhood. The atmosphere is such that I wanted to take a bath after 10 minutes of walking around. I felt grimy to my core, and I think I picked up some lice or fleas. I just itched! It was very effective.
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17. 2nd Jan 2008, 03:19 #142
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FM: Bad Blood - (BadBlood_V2.zip)
Ghost - Success (Chemical)
Perfect Thief - Failed
Time - 01:09:39
Loot - 4305/4345
Pockets Picked - 7/9
Backstabs - 0 Knockouts - 0
Damage dealt - 0 Damage taken - 15
Healing taken - 0 Kills - 1
Secrets Found - 0/0
General Notes
-The imprisoned hammerite in the jail would routinely go on first alert after spotting the patrolling bluecoat. This bluecoat would also mutter a first alert after seeing some of the inmates. I'm glad these AI didn't see each other well enough that their alert status escalated to anything more than a first alert.
-The lever in the weapons room of the jail set off the alarm and closed the outer gates. I couldn't figure out how to open the gates, so I feel bad for any non-ghoster who did this and had to restart (there was a frobbable and locked wall panel close to the jail that I never figured out how to open. Maybe this is a secret passageway to the jail?).
-The bank gave me some ghosting problems. Getting over the fence required some careful maneuvering and vigilance. There was a stationary archer behind a fence watching the courtyard of the bank. I made the mistake of getting over the fence via the ledge jutting out of one house and not realizing that he had gone on second alert. So I stacked my notes on the high walkway that leads to the jail and managed to mantle onto one of the stone-textured pillars separating the metal fences. I also concluded later that mantling onto the metal fence itself was also possible and even better.
-I took the easy route of mossing almost the entire floor inside the bank because I didn't like the interior guard's patrol. I know I could have done it without moss (there are dark spots against the counter), but I just wanted to save time and energy.
-I absolutely had to nudge the idle guard in the office upstairs. There was no way for me to get by him and grab the essential note with the vault code. I suppose I could have alerted the guard, learned the code and reloaded, but that kind of situation, as if Garrett had clairvoyance about the contents of the note, didn't sit well with me. I simply nudged the guard straight into the desk and leaned forward to snatch the note out of the trashcan.
-Getting the Nephew's Key from the yardmaster was also impossible without using a much-appreciated invisibility potion that the author placed in a footlocker. The key was on a nobleman staring right into his office door in bright light; any kind of stealth in this room was out of the question. I used my invis potion to run in and get his key (and some loot).
-I was concerned when I thought I explored most of the mission and was still 700 loot short of my objective (4000)! I was stunned to find a purse worth 1000 loot and an important key lying on the ground between two pieces of machinery on the top floor of the yardmaster place. There was also a pressure plate between the machinery (basically a trap) that when stepped on sets off some kind of explosions nearby, alerting all AI in the area. At least I could reload and get around the pressure plate.
-One of the objectives was to kill the "real perpetrator" of the crimes Garrett was arrested for. He was found beyond a Keeper door and in an underground hideout. I opened the door to his room and fired a broadhead into his face, hence my 15 damage.
-I don't know about the missing 40 loot (two loose coins somewhere?).
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18. 3rd Jan 2008, 20:01 #143
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I am tentatively optimistic
Originally Posted by Peter Smith
The ghoster recruits can walk in the footsteps of a ghoster, but I think the ghosting experience is not captured. The main point of Thief is the adventure of the unknown, the puzzle solving, the route finding, and the hunt. Eventually, to graduate, the ghoster recruit needs to be weaned from walkthoughs. I wonder: how many people who seek them out will make the grade?
Well, I may have one person on the hook. This is from an email regarding one of the LootThroughs:
On a personal note, I wanted to say thanks for opening up a different way to play. I am normally the blackjack anything that moves type of player. I have gone back to ghost Two Fathers, and I actually did it! \o/ I am going to try ghosting your others, then who knows, I might go back & try all my favorites.
We'll see if she follows through. I hope so. I have encouraged her to post her results once she starts stepping out on her own.
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19. 6th Jan 2008, 03:19 #144
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FM: TIC Part 1: Conspiracies in the Dark - (TICpt1_Conspiraciesv2.zip)
Ghost - Success
Perfect Thief - Success
Time - 02:34:21
Loot - 2225/2225
Pockets Picked - 11/18
Backstabs - 0 Knockouts - 1
Damage dealt - 1 Damage taken - 0
Healing taken - 0 Kills - 0
Secrets Found - 13/13
Comments - This is an aesthetically beautiful and expertly designed FM that actually felt like Thief 1 rather than Thief 2. Indeed, the author reskinned everyone with T1 models, used many objects and sounds that recalled the original Thief and even reading materials hinted at the timeline being close to Thief (Ramirez and Bafford mentioned). Despite the inherent tedium of retracing steps, I loved this FM and it provided some fun and quite a few challenges, too. While the author did not seem conscious of ghosting when placing AI in the mission, it's obvious he or she wanted to satisfy all modes of play. There were no difficult spots to report, although some areas were impossible to ghost without using secret passageways.
General Notes
-Many of the guards and servants were intelligent enough to turn on light switches after I had flicked them off. This can be a problem but sometimes I used it to my advantage. For instance, if I had to slow down a particular guard's patrol while I did some looting business nearby, I could flip off a switch and buy some extra time while the guard went over and dealt with it.
-There are some scripted conversations that shouldn't count as busts. The servant or lutist in the attic is one. Returning his stolen lute to his bed causes him to talk to Garrett. So while the plot suggests that he is aware of the player, he does not go on any kind of technical alert.
-My least favorite aspect of this mission is the alteration of the distance in which items highlight. To manipulate many of the frobbable and lootable objects, the player has to be quite close to them and this took some getting used to. I would often almost miss loot entirely or vital secret switches because of it.
-I had to use moss in the room with the fountain and the display of the Lord's corpse. The guard's circular patrol on the marble floored room looked troublesome, so I gave myself an extra second by using moss and sprinted towards the wood panels near the statues.
-Getting to the Notary's room was only feasible by using the air vents. There was a guard staring at the door right outside of the Notary's room and he did not pivot. I found out later that I had to come back to this room and blackjack the nobleman or "Notary" standing inside.
-Acquiring the two swords on the walls was easy, but getting the tiara on the statue needed some careful work with rope arrows. I shot my rope arrow so that the rope fell flush with the edge of the statue. The end of the rope was thus dangling over the table in the pub area. I then climbed up and leapt to the top of the statue. Now I could remove my rope arrow and carefully drop down (first onto some trimming; second onto the top of a painting; and finally to the table and then the floor).
Thank Sneak for Nudging
One of the many "New Objectives" I encountered after my dealings with the Lord's ghost was to take the Notary (a nobleman with a male_thief voice) and drop him in the sewers with the spider. So blackjacking was needed because I had to carry his body. I assumed I could just carry him to the general sewer area and drop him anywhere... but it didn't work out that way. Through some experimentation, I learned that dropping the nobleman right in the spider's path was required. And this was a problem. The Notary could be dropped in a patch of shadow and not be discovered by the spider, but getting there was the issue because a stationary guard makes any stealth in the sewers (without using the water) fairly difficult. The sewer area is roughly a T shape, with deep water filling most of the space in these tunnels. There were ledges protruding from the walls, but some of these ledges could not even be mantled onto. I was dragging the Notary's body from the left side of the _ part of the T. The guard is positioned right at the top of the | section and I needed to go down to the bottom of that | tunnel.
This would have been a piece of cake if only I could carry the Notary's body above water and not have him drown. Merely swimming with him for more than 3 seconds killed him. I tried placing his corpse on one of the ledges so that while in the water I could pick him up and quickly mantle to the other side. Unfortunately, the area was too bright and the guard always saw me. I had no alternative but to nudge the guard... and far. If he was at the top of the | tunnel, I moved him all the way over to the far right side of the _ tunnel. And it worked. I could still grab the Notary's corpse while in the water and mantle to the other side. I later realized that I could have taken another route to the sewers, but it surely would have added another 45 minutes to my total time. If I had gone out the front door of the mansion and over the portcullis, I could get to the mission start and go back through the sewers. But I lost the drive to basically sneak through that huge mansion again while carrying a body.
I still remember the astonishment I felt when reading Sneak's report of T2's "Life of the Party" where he explains how he "nudged" some female AI to get through an open house and to Angelwatch. While nudging might be frowned on and seem completely ridiculous because it exploits the engine, I am infinitely grateful to Sneak for discovering and ultimately revealing it to the Thief community. I might have had to call this mission and many another FM a bust, but thanks to "nudging," I have one more tool in my arsenal to deal with these impossible situations where conventional stealth cannot be employed.
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20. 6th Jan 2008, 08:33 #145
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FM: Homo Arbor - (HomoArbor.zip)
Ghost - Success
Perfect Thief - Success
Time - 01:37:43
Loot - 3137/3137
Pockets Picked - 16/17
Backstabs - 2 Knockouts - 0
Damage dealt - 30 Damage taken - 0
Healing taken - 0 Kills - 1
Secrets Found - 0/0
Comments - All deserve a few stripes who manage to ghost this one. I hadn't really come across this mission until I noticed Huntress' post about it. Her difficulties intrigued me and I decided to play this for the challenge. There really are at least two major ghosting problems and one that was crippling. Through some steadfast determination, I overcame the major problem of killing Basso, which I'll get to soon. As for any general ghosting issues with AI patrols and such, the mission had a few rough spots but nothing a seasoned ghoster isn't prepared for.
General Notes
-Right from the start there was a patrolling bluecoat and an idle one outside of the gate. The patrolling bluecoat makes a back-and-forth patrol down a well-lit pathway. In the alcove connected to this pathway was an idle female bluecoat next to a torch. There were no easy ways to sneak by them; no shadows to hide in and wait. Instead, I had to crouch and hug the left side of the patrolling bluecoat, so that when he turned, I could slip by him. Even with a good yellowed light gem, the idle female bluecoat didn't go on second alert. I could have doused torches for safety but I'm glad I didn't because water arrows are absolutely required to ghost later areas of this mission.
-The patrolling guard on the bridge made a pretty long back-and-forth round, too. Fortunately, he was easier to deal with. Again, hugging his left side as he turns was the key.
-I don't know what hitting the gate lever did because it made a sound like hitting a light-switch but nothing happened. At least I snatched a purse while at this dead end.
-Getting into the water under the bridge was the only path I discovered in order to progress further, but the layout of this area doesn't make it clear. First, getting over the fenced sides of the bridge was difficult. Second, there were two areas that literally tease the player about how to continue in this mission: the crack in the tunnel with its blue-hued interior ceiling and mushrooms. I tried using my stack of apples and breath potion to help me get in there but it didn't work; there was also a series of moss-textured platforms sticking out the side of the wall near the bridge. It looked like you could mantle onto each one and scale upwards... never went back to find out.
-To get into the water under the bridge, I dropped an apple and tried mantling over the fence and the apple helped give me a boost so I could get over it.
-Going up the rope of the well could lead to an instant ghost bust for the careless player. There were two guards having a conversation next to the well and one was facing it; I made the clumsy mistake of climbing all the way up to the top of the well in bright light, which put the facing bluecoat on second alert. So I reloaded and waited until their conversation ended and the one bluecoat leaved.
-I had to be really careful around the two houses with the nobleman and female servant inside. The windows were specially textured but they were translucent and it was difficult to hear the AI mutterings inside. Thus it was easy to trigger a second alert and not hear it or know it.
-The kitchen in the nobleman's house was a vital part of the mission because it had loot necessary to reach the 3000 objective.
-The jail had a few challenges for me. First, there was the guard who alternates between patrolling and standing idle at the counter. I used the cell block to hide in while this guard made his rounds. The female thief inside one of the cells cannot see through the door, even though it was one of those barred doors in which I could clearly see through. From this cell area, I quickly moved to the safe and back again, until I could pick the moneybox. There was also an extremely important switch next to this box that moves one of the bunkbeds in the barracks, revealing a secret passageway with at least 500 loot.
-Once the bunkbed slides over, a bluecoat spawns in front of the jail door with the "armory key." I was furious about his arbritrary spawning, but after using his key to get into the armory (collecting much-needed water arrows), I had to nudge him away from the door a bit just so I could get out!
-I had to carefully creep forward next to the red-clothed archer in his outpost until I could frob the lever to open the gate to Lord de Winter's estate.
-Sneaking by the guard at the front door of the estate was possible through dumb luck and speed. By bracing against the wall and running quickly, the guard only let out a first alert.
-I had no problems at Lord de Winter's estate, but I did have to douse some torches by the music stage and the food tables. The drunk idle guard had an impeccable sight and I needed extra darkness to sneak by him and into the secret experimental area.
The Laboratory: Charlie and de Winter
Thankfully, I had been collecting some moss arrows and every one of them counted here. The laboratory with the slowly patrolling apebeast (Charlie) and the unarmed male thief (Lord de Winter) proved to be terribly vexing for me and I imagine for any ghoster. It was just so difficult for me to ascertain how I could succeed. The laboratory was a brightly-lit room consisting of three adjacent areas: the small bathroom with the treebeast mask, Charlie's cage (more like a large cell with bars acting as walls), and the ice arrow chamber. Lord de Winter's back was turned and he faced Charlie's cage. Fortunately, Charlie had a very slow back-and-forth patrol (some reading material even indicated that Charlie was weakened from the experiments). I mossed the first metal area of the floor so I could run in and get into the bathroom. I noticed that when crouched in full brightness against the bathroom door, Charlie only gave off a first alert during his patrol.
Every time Charlie's back turned I darted out and shot another moss arrow to cover the metal floor. I returned to my bright yellow spot, getting another first alert, and ran out again when Charlie turned. I repeatedly did this until I had mossed the entire metal floor of the laboratory. A lot of trial and error occurred after this. It took me a long time to learn how to open up the ice arrow chamber (a tiny metal vault door blocking a switch on one of the pieces of machinery). Once I had located the switch (after hitting the electrical box lever), I ran back to my safe but bright spot. When Charlie turned again, I ran out and made sure to stay in sight of Charlie's peripheral vision; that is, I positioned myself to directly align with his profile. With the ice arrow chamber opened, I could get inside and stay safe without alerting Charlie.
Since reading the journal in Winter's bathroom triggered the objective to retrieve the ice arrow, I was upset when picking up the ice arrow above the icicle; it caused damage! I figured out, though, that the actual ice arrow (behind a glass panel) is what satisfies the objective; and this one does not cause damage when looted. So I left the floating ice arrow above the icicle alone. In a different game, I tested it and learned that firing it into AI causes them to freeze in place. Anyway, getting back to my safe spot was by now routine for me.
But here was the next task... I had to get inside Charlie's cage! Another objective was to steal the manual for constructing the ice arrows and the author decided to place it in a secret compartment in Charlie's pen. I was relieved that frobbing the electrical box not only opened the little vault door blocking the switch for the ice arrow chamber, but it caused the lights in Charlie's pen to turn off. Without those lights, I was able to sneak into his cage and get to the secret compartment with little trouble. I used one of my notes to jump on so I could reach the ledge (with the deer leg on it).
Mission Impossible: Kill a Treebeast Next to Two Guards Without Alerts
Ok, so I breathed some relief that I ghosted this incredibly daunting laboratory by use of moss and haste. My last objective, however, crushed me: I had to kill Basso... or at least, the Bassobeast. Basically, the plot of this FM is that Lord de Winter captured Basso and through his experiments, transformed him into a treebeast. Indeed, the treebeast in the circular cage under the spotlights had a stretched skin of Basso's face. The problem was that I had to kill him and he was a treebeast. And not only that: there were two patrolling guards, torches lighting up the area, and six large spotlights shining down on the pen. Argh!
I didn't give in, though. With the Mission Impossible music playing in my head, I doused every torch in the vicinity. I opened the gate to Basso's cell and studied his movement. My arsenal of killing only included a mine and my sword. I decided to test this whole scenario and just backstab the Bassobeast. Interestingly, an overhead slash killed him instantly and only made a clunking wood sound, as if I struck a door with my blackjack. The two patrolling guards were not alerted(!)... until they got closer and noticed the corpse. Both guards dashed to the alarm and my elation subsided.
I refused to give up on this, though, because while the spotlights attached to the ceiling were lighting up Basso's pen, there were certain areas (really just a few inches) of complete darkness. I noticed that the Bassobeast's circular patrol covered some of these small patches of darkness. So I tried repeatedly killing him in different areas of the pen... but I had no success rate... I really was about to give up until I tried one last spot: on the opposite end of the gate in a fairly larger area of complete darkness. I followed Bassobeast's back until he hit this spot and I let go my backstab. I waited for the two guards to make their rounds and... No alerts! I watched these guards make at least three rounds, just to be sure and they did not spot the dead Bassobeast. Mission accomplished: ghost succeeded.
Returning to the city had one last issue: another damn bluecoat spawned, this time in front of the gate to Lord de Winter's estate. I had to nudge him against the wall so I could slink by him. I don't know why my backstab count was 2, but nevertheless... here is a pure and rewarding ghost success.
________________________________________
21. 9th Jan 2008, 06:59 #146
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FM: Clefts on the Hammer - (CotMA1_v20.zip)
Ghost - Success
Perfect Thief - Failed
Time - 02:14:30
Loot - 2923/3473
Pockets Picked - 5/6
Backstabs - 0 Knockouts - 0
Damage dealt - 0 Damage taken - 0
Healing taken - 0 Kills - 0
Secrets Found - 4/2
Comments - This was really tough to ghost; nearly every area had a trouble spot. Buying nothing but water arrows prior to starting the mission was absolutely essential for me to ghost this mission. Those who like to get by without using these expendables (moss, water) will have to resort to them here. But the author didn't even provide ANY in the mission. I expected to pick up a few moss arrows around bushes or water arrows in a sink but no; just fire arrows and broadheads conveniently placed in footlockers. The author seems to be of the mindset that all players will want to blackjack every guard in their path. There were so many AI placed in positions that made sneaking by impossible but blackjacking easy... i.e., in front of doors that the player would be exiting or staring at certain areas with the player coming from behind. To open a door and see a hammerite's back blocking my progress really irked me, so I had to use nudging in one case. Despite my problems, I ultimately ghosted this monstrosity.
I also had some personal grievances with the insignificance of many areas in this mission; there were a lot of rooms that were basically empty and meaningless. I felt like I investigated nearly every area but didn't feel rewarded, except for two spots that turned out to be secrets. The entire mine system, beautifully designed and perfectly immersive, had multiple levels but contained only rats and an interesting scripted apparition (there was also a crypt that cannot be accessed without breaking wooden planks). But in that huge multi-leveled mine, I didn't see one silver nugget, blue diamond, or any loot at all: no reward for exploration...
General Notes
-Sneaking around the catapult next to the three soldiers was tricky. One guard frequently pivoted while another patrolled. The third drunk one was standing next to a moneybox with a good 225 loot inside. I had to douse the campfire and mantle onto the catapult so I wouldn't collide with the patrolling guard.
-I left Lord Seth's camp until last because of the ubiquitous torches. I wasn't sure how many water arrows I would need later in the mission. Upon returning after ghosting the rest of the FM, I doused two torches and the campfire because of at least five guards moving around here.
-I was faced with a terrible ghosting problem after exiting the mines/hammer outpost. There was a closed cemetary gate and a hammerite pressed against it with his back turned to me. He simply blocked the way through this gate. If I didn't have any stackable items I would have had to nudge this guard. Instead of nudging, I decided to get over the fence by dropping a stack of a note, papyrus and loaf of bread onto the hedgerow. This gave me enough of a boost to mantle onto the stone pillar separating the gate from the metal fence. I then safely dropped down onto the fence and to the city street.
-Ghosting all areas was a slow process because of AI positions, cramped situations, numerous torches and limited water arrows, and an abundance of marble floors.
The Hammerite Town
Sneaking around this town area was the most challenging part of the mission. Reloads were constant and it seemed like every guard posed a serious problem for me. The one by the streetlamp in between the castle and the deserted house would often spot me and running by quickly was the only way I could avoid putting him on second alert. The guard at the edge of the castle near the tower was another problem. A few feet to his right was another guard with a strangely brief patrol. I think this guard was fairly blind but he was totally silent and thus if he went on a second alert, I might fail to notice it. I was able to hide in the corner against the tower and the hedgerow without this strange blind guard noticing. But I could not get through the cemetary gates without alerting at least one of these hammerites. Instead, I used a rope arrow against the shed and jumped onto the hedgerows which connected to the wall of the cemetary. I was frustrated when I did all that work and learned that I still didn't have the right key to enter the hammerite church.
I returned to the town area and continued to case the place. I got onto the castle from one of the hedgerows and discovered a crack in the roof that led to the interior of the castle. Slipping down through this crack triggered a found secret message and at least I got a good portion of loot for my efforts. I tried getting into the tower via the beam connected to the wall but mantling onto the open slit of the tower did not work; something was wrong with the architecture because the space was large enough to mantle through, but Garrett didn't "stick" to the edge at all. I noticed that with the hedgerows, too: they cannot be mantled onto. So I snuck by those two awfully difficult guards (idle and strange patrolling one) and into the tower... and all I got was a dewdrop (which counted as a secret).
To get into the house with the frobbable window, I had to go all the way around to the back of the stationary hammerite by the hedgerows. I was able to fire a rope arrow into one hedgerow, but since I couldn't mantle onto them, I had to rely on using the L shape of the hedgerows to my advantage. Firing a rope arrow on one side and jumping to the other line of the angle was the only way to get onto these tall hedgerows.
Nudging, Water Arrows, Mad Dashes, Oh My!
After silently sinking into the water by the moat and the closed gate, I discovered a new area of the mission and was ecstatic. But when I got past one guard inside a castle area and opened the door leading out, I hit a brick wall; literally a hammerite's back (psst... FM authors... not all of us automatically blackjack every guard we see ). Now, to be fair, I later learned that after opening the closed gate (lever inside the castle) by the moat, I could have gone back to the moat with the pivoting guard without having to nudge the guard blocking the door. I actually did this later in the mission when I retraced my steps to this area; I was able to sneak by the pivoting guard on the moat and the troublesome idle guard with his back facing that door. However, at the moment of being at this door and walking into that hammerite's back, I just did not feel like turning around and going all the way back.
So I had to do a lot of tedious and careful nudging; tedious because I had to nudge a little bit and hide while waiting for two hammerite patrols to go by; and careful because if I nudged this guard too far out I would NOT be able to sneak through the cramped area. The area was L shaped and the hammerite was standing at the vertex of that right angle. If I pushed him too far out, I would not be able to sneak through either paths of that L-shaped area. Of course, it didn't help that a streetlamp was keeping the area bright. I reloaded dozens of times here, but I eventually prevailed. Just running quickly to different spots of medium brightness was the only option... but then I had to worry about the patrolling guard down the tunnel; dousing both torches was needed. I also had to douse one torch by the gate with... you guessed it, a guard standing right in front of it. Oh, I could get by him, but he was staring at a door and a staircase that I needed to go through. Dousing at least one torch was completely necessary.
The Hammerite Barracks
I could successfully creep around the marble floors of the bottom level of the barracks without dousing any torches or the bright fireplace, but the second floor was impossible. I had to douse every torch because of the patrolling guard on the marble floor. He was walking across a narrow balcony and there was just no time to sneak by him. Even with all the torches doused, I had trouble. I was luckily able to do a ballet-like leap onto the thin stone-textured edge of the balcony and scale across. Again... lots of reloads were happening. You know, this mission probably takes the record of most reloads in my whole experience of playing Thief (even beats the zombies in the mines of T1's Cragscleft Prison).
Finishing Up
Once I acquired the right key to the church, I had to recreate all of my maneuvers of getting around these numerous hammerites, but after my 20+ reloads, I was a master. Once inside the church, I was generally stumped on how to proceed. I noticed an unusually textured slab of stone next to the altar (clearly a door leading to a secret passageway) and I didn't know how to open it. I also had to douse all torches near the altar and even then it was bright. Hugging the walls behind the altar was the only way to avoid alerting the hammerite nearby.
I confess I let out some frustration by blackjacking both hammerites in the church so I could quickly investigate for secret switches and loot. I learned by reading the stone tablets about "looking up to the heavens" and at "Brother Tennor's Eyes," that these were clues. Sure enough, there was a stained glass window of a hammerite priest and a plaque that said "Brother Tennor." Nestled into one of his eyes was a red button and that opened the secret passageway. I thought it was funny when I entered this passage and Garrett made a remark about how it was time to raid a tomb... except for the hammerite book (objective) there was nothing in this tomb! I expected maybe a gold vase or an amulet resting on the dozens of sarcophagi, but nothing. The frobbable hammerite panel was locked and I needed a key that could only be obtained by busting a ghost. So I take that back... there were at least valuable books inside this hammer panel, but still... I expected some loot lying around this fairly large tomb.
I had previously discovered the secret escape tunnel through the hammerite barracks and used that to go back to Lord Seth's camp. Once I obtained over 2500 loot (the objective), I had no desire to try for any more. Perfect Thief is impossible anyway because one must break down boards AND shoot a fire arrow into a stone wall that bars the way to the crypt under the mines.
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22. 11th Jan 2008, 03:25 #147
Hexameron
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FM: In dubio pro Garrett - (InDubioProGarrett.zip)
Ghost - Success
Perfect Thief - Failed
Time - 01:42:53
Loot - 2892/3487
Pockets Picked - 13/15
Backstabs - 0 Knockouts - 0
Damage dealt - 0 Damage taken - 0
Healing taken - 0 Kills - 0
Secrets Found - 0/0
General Notes
-No alerts could be made when playing on expert.
-With the exception of the bluecoats and watchers by the city watch building, none of the AI in the city were aggressive to or aware of Garrett.
-Sneaking through the sewers was tedious because of the numerous patrolling frogbeasts; making one little splash sound while walking in water disturbed them.
-As a student majoring in music, I loved what the author did with music in this mission. While some of the atmospheric music was not very Thief (in the vault and the city watch building), it was thrilling to turn on the various victrolas and hear Beethoven's 5th or Mozart's "Eine Kleine Nachtmusik." I had to chuckle when the victrola next to the burrick pen played Wagner's "Ride of the Valkyries." Despite the scandalous activity of this Lord Andre, I liked him for playing Wagner to his pets.
-Those burricks, by the way, were also non-aggressive and did not hear/see me (they could still be provoked with an overhead sword slash).
-I thought getting by those watchers in Andre's mansion was going to bust my ghost; they were everywhere. Fortunately, I learned in Hagen's room that the basement had a camera control room.
-I had to moss the floor right in front of the watcher guarding the basement door just so I wouldn't alert the patrolling guards when running across the tiled floor. Running was necessary for timing reasons. I could not avoid setting off a watcher if I tried to sneak towards the basement.
-At the city watch jail, I had to douse the torch in the cell block. This enabled me to escape with Carlos without alerting one of the inmates. Crouching while moving across the wood floor of the barracks was required, too. There was a sleeping guard who, if disturbed by my running on the floor, would get up and see me trying to make my escape with Carlos.
The Breakfast Club and Indiana Jones: Some Movie Reminiscences with a Vault Door
I thought I would have to declare a ghost bust at the vault, but some problem solving and multiple reloads enabled me to defeat this area completely. The vault door in the basement had its own lockbox and opening that would open the vault door. However, the door would close after about 5-10 seconds, so the author intended for the player to get trapped in the vault after walking in. Once the vault door closed behind the player in the vault, there was no way to escape without slashing a banner.
In addition to having a lot of loot, the vault also had the Horn of Quintus (objective), an important key to continue into the mission, and a book that explained where another essential item needed for an objective was located. After my efforts made in the huge mansion with the watchers, I was kind of bummed that I would have to call this ghost a bust. But I perservered and tried to beat this thing. First, I tried setting up numerous items against the vault door. I put as many crates and objects I could find against the opened vault door. It was hilarious to watch the door close and push everything away as if it weighed no more than styrofoam. It reminded me of a scene in the movie, The Breakfast Club, where the principal placed a chair in front of a door to prop it open, but the door slammed shut and sent the chair flying.
Just for kicks, I tried standing in front of the open vault door and waited for it to close... I was in for quite a ride and nothing was going to keep that vault door open. There was also no way to place objects so that they collided with the frame of the vault door; items would just get stuck inside of the vault door itself.
But wait... what if I could just make a mad dash into the vault, grab the items and run back before the vault door closes? Simplicity is the best thing because it worked. It took several practice runs and I reloaded after either taking damage (after dropping from the steep staircase) or not getting back through the vault door in time. On my best run, I managed to get the loot on the left side of the vault, the key, the journal, and the horn. Dropping down from the staircase and mantling back onto it was the only way to save time and get through the door; I felt like Indiana Jones in that Temple of Doom scene with the closing stone slab (where Indiana grabs his hat after narrowly escaping). I had to run into the vault right after opening the door, grab the most important items, mantle back onto the stairs, and then leap through the gap of a closing vault door. Sorry my dear FM author, I am not slashing banners today
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23. 11th Jan 2008, 20:53 #148
goldsla
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Dance with the Dead
FM: Dance with the Dead (DwtD_v12.zip)
Ghost - Maybe * * * UPDATED * * *Nope, Failed
Perfect Thief - Failure
Time - 01:43:57
Loot - 0/6885
Pockets Picked - n/a
Backstabs - 0 Knockouts - 0
Damage dealt - 0 Damage taken - 0
Healing taken - 0 Kills - 0
Secrets Found - 0/6
Comments:
This mission offers 9 possible combinations of play. 1st there are 3 difficulty levels ("Easy Peasy", "Harder" and "Nightmare"), and then there are 3 playing modes ("Garrett", "Duke Nukem", and "Suicidal"). I chose Nightmare and Suicidal. On reflection, I bet that I did not satisfy rule #1 (Highest difficulty level available and playable, usually Expert, although it might be renamed by the author) with that choice. To truly play the game at its most difficult, I probably should have chosen Nightmare and Duke Nukem.
The FM notes say about Duke Nukem: "There are significantly more enemy AI than in other modes. Ghosting is almost certainly impossible." And that level only gives you blow-em-up devices, so none of the goodies would have been of any use. Hence the "Maybe" for ghosting, given my choice of play modes.
Bluntly, this mission is not for ghosting. Not that it can't be done. I bet that I could ghost it now (Nightmare and Suicidal) in less than an hour. No bets about trying Nightmare and Duke Nukem. But well over half of the mission is in optional objectives that cannot be ghosted because they require the breakage of coverings on elemental placards. (This violates rule 6: No property damage is allowed. No banners cut, no doors bashed in, no things burnt or destroyed, and no broken glass.)
And you don't have much fun when you are ghosting this one. There is very little to do when ghosting. There is one toy sword you can pick up as loot and a tiara (they didn't show in my stats because I reloaded to earlier than finding them and didn't bother to go back for the 60 g or so that they were worth). I didn't see anything else outside of the secret areas, which required busting the ghost to get to. Just get Asmodan's Icon of Death and get out. You navigate three levels full of skeletons in a very realisticly boring crypt type area. The atmosphere is great. But there is not much to do if you are ghosting.
If you don't ghost, there are puzzles to solve, acrobatics to engage in, mazes to swim, and so on. Lots of fun. But not for ghosting.
Hexameron reports having trouble due to the skeletons making no noise. I did not have that problem. They were plenty noisy in my game play, so I could always tell when one was approaching or retreating. They did not seem to ever exhibit a first level alert, going straight from no alert to you're busted. And they were hyper-sensitive. But after a while I began to understand the limits they presented and was able to get around OK.
I may go back and look at ghosting this in Duke Nukem mode. But I won't bother with any loot.
* * * UPDATE 1/11/2008 * * *
I did try to ghost Duke Nukem & failed. I could not even get down to the mid level. In Duke Nukem, there are now stationary guards in front of the two staircases down. One is a skeleton archer and one is a skleleton mage. The mage is right up against a wall, and there is no way to sneak behind it. The archer is far enough off of the wall that you can get behind, but its peripheral vision is too good. It caught me every time it tried for the stairs. Duke Nukem definately cannot be ghosted by me. So my call is that the FM cannot be ghosted since it canot be ghosted at its hardest level. One can still get through other levels without alerts, but not Duke Nukem.
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24. 11th Jan 2008, 21:01 #149
Yandros
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The boring nature of the straight path in this mission is precisely why I added all the secrets and loot - my testers told me not to bother releasing it before they were added, it was boring and not "up to standards" - and they were right.
I think there is 20-30 loot available outside of the secret areas, not just the one sword. But I may be remembering wrong.
I think Duke Nukem mode at any difficulty will not be ghostable. After you take the Icon, new AI are teleported in, some of which are placed such that I don't think it's possible to get back to the entrance without alerting them - but you're welcome to try. The best ghosting experience on this mission is probably Garrett, where some new AI are added but not placed such that escaping is impossible.
Peter, I thought at the time we tested this mission that the breaking of the placards to access the secret areas wasn't considered a bust - am I remembering wrong? Because I recall that I changed the flinders produced when whacking a placard so that they didn't make noise when hitting the ground, after you mentioned that that had alerted some nearby AI and busted the ghost.
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25. 12th Jan 2008, 04:09 #150
Hexameron
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FM: The Ashen Age Part 1 - (AshAgeP1V4.zip)
Ghost - Failed
Perfect Thief - Failed
Time - 01:00:07
Loot - 2362/2412
Pockets Picked - 4/8
Backstabs - 0 Knockouts - 1
Damage dealt - 1 Damage taken - 0
Healing taken - 0 Kills - 1
Secrets Found - 2/2
Causes of Failure
-Cannot sneak by male thief outside of the pub above Corrado's place.
-Cannot sneak by male thief patrolling near Corrado's office.
-Must use an explosive device to blast away debris blocking the mission end. Explosion also alerts a nearby zombie.
Comments - I wonder what the programmers and mission designers of the original Thief games would think when they look at an FM like this. With the textures completely revamped, the sound of footsteps changed, and the gorgeous mission design, I bet the original designers would be impressed. I'm frankly amazed at what some of our best FM designers are capable of, as exhibited in the breathtaking quality of this mission. It's small, almost reminiscent of a contest mission, but beautifully built. In addition to being enraptured by all of the eye candy, I also had a hell of a fun time taffing about and trying to ghost this FM.
General Notes
-I noticed that on expert level most of the guards were quite sensitive, but only with regards to first alerts. If I was in the corner with one yellow hue above the complete darkness of the light gem, a far-away AI would make a first alert; that never happens for me in normal Thief OM's/FM's. There was definitely an alteration to their sensitivity, but at least there was nothing quirky (dousing a torch, opening a door, or proximity) that alerted them.
-I loved the multiple routes the player could take to avoid a frontal assault with numerous AI's. This is what makes a great mission: when you can find solutions for tough situations by using less conspicuous but design-intended alternative paths.
-Even if ghosting was possible, perfect thief would not be; I could not get the many gold coins in the fountain next to the two nobles without alerting one.
-I was able to ghost the watcher guarding the three vaults, but it was pretty difficult, especially once I opened the second vault. To sneak into the actual vault lobby, I had to hug the patrolling guard's back, slowly peek inside the lobby and wait for the watcher's face to be moving to the right side of the room. I would then dash into one of the open vaults, keep an eye on the patrolling guard, and repeat my method. It was safe to stand under the watcher, too. But I learned later that I could have deactivated the damn thing. One of the keys I had acquired early on (Renzo's Key) unexpectedly opened a locked door to Captain Benoit's room. In here there was a crumpled note with the keycode to deactivate both watcher's in this area... oh well.
-There was no chance of sneaking into Corrado's pub. The street area was T shaped and the thief stood at the left side of the _ part. While there were a few shadows against the tip of the | area, the area was literally bright as the sun... because the mission takes place during the day. I couldn't even move beyond the tip of the street without having a bright yellow gem with a red bar. Obviously any movement out into the open alerted the stationary thief. So I knew this was impossible and used one of the author's clever Clockwork Rats to deal with the thief. I loved this: I tossed the thing to the ground and it scurried about and let out a gaseous fume to knock out the guy.
-I could sneak by the girl at the pub counter but there was no hope for the thief down by the water and Corrado's office. I had to pick the office door, which was nestled in a narrow and bright tunnel, and I had no time to do so with that thief's back-and-forth patrol. I used a gas mine in this case to knock him out. Technically I should have 2 knockouts, but since I have a kill count, it looks like the Clockwork Rat's fume actually kills?
-I wasn't sure, initially, how I would make my escape because I didn't even know what the "old sewers" were; it wasn't marked on the map and I had no clue where to go. I figured out that my objective to find a way to unblock the sewers checked off after I had picked up the deadly weapons from the treasure room. One of these weapons was an explosive device. I placed it on the rubble down in the sewer area with the zombie and shot it with a broadhead; the collapsed debris blew up and I heard a very disturbed zombie before the mission ended.