- 01-11-2008, 11:12 PM by Hexameron #151
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FM: Nostalgia -
(Nostalgia.zip)
Ghost - Success
Perfect Thief - N/A
Time - 00:32:58
Loot - 0/0
Pockets Picked - 3/9
Backstabs - 0 Knockouts - 0
Damage dealt - 0 Damage taken - 0
Healing taken - 0 Kills - 0 Bodies Discovered by Enemies - 1
Secrets Found - 0/0
Comments - This mission is
more like an RPG and actually reminded me of the Gothic series. The player is
not Garrett, but a young boy named Darren who must run some errands for his
father. The plot thickens as the player (boy) must infiltrate some places, use
pure stealth, and ultimately escape a terrible trap unscathed. For its
un-Thiefy style and brevity, I really enjoyed this mission. I also felt that
the foggy catacombs, or really, that single large hall with the tunnel leading
to the hammerite stained glass window, was the most intricate and magnificent
crypt-scene I've ever experienced. I want this talented author to make a pure
crypt mission because the attention to detail in that single hall is amazing.
General Notes
-The AI (or in RPG terms, NPC's) of the city did not see or hear Garrett... er,
I mean "Darren." It was pretty straightforward what to do and I
completed my little "mini-quest" of getting the gold from the banker
and buying fish from the market. For some reason, I had the perverse urge to
nudge the servant that was fishing off of the docks into the water and see how
the townsfolk reacted. He choked and died to no one's concern... I also tried
dropping some wine bottles in the well and ran up against some non-frobbable
crates, and this upset everyone. They may have been searching around, but they
were still unaware of the player. In his search, the homeless person with a
TGold Raoul skin even got stuck in his fire barrel and burned to death. Of
course I reloaded after doing all of this stuff for giggles.
-I was glad I jumped in the water and explored the town because I found an
essential Power Station key under the fishing servant. Having this key was
vital and offered the only way to progress in the mission.
-Using pure stealth in the thief caves was the only feasible playing style and
I'm glad to see it embraced... it makes sense and I'm glad the author didn't
give the player a crowbar or a wood plank just to satisfy the blackjack freaks
out there.
-There were a few puzzles of finding a lever to open a door, three colored gems
to place in appropriate sockets, and then placing a gold skull on a pole to
open a door.
Dazed and Confused Undead and Dies Irae
for the Townpeople
When I got to the crypt area, which was a truly inspiring sight with its fog
and unbelievable attention to detail in the architecture, a gate closed behind
me... I knew something bad was about to happen... I continued down the tunnel
and noticed the father's corpse by a pedestal. The corpse was clutching a pagan
book and picking it up created a New Objective. However, taking the book also
causes another gate to close and two walls to open, which lets out two very
eager zombies and skeletons into the room.
I'm not sure about my confidence level in telling the reader that this area is
ghostable. I ghosted it for sure... but if the player makes the wrong choice,
it's possible to get stuck and never be able to ghost your way out. It was easy
for me to practice the right moves of grabbing the book and running into the
shadow before the undead see. But ultimate success depends on where you run. If
you run behind the columns, you'll be stuck for at least 20 minutes because of
the soon-to-be-undead-filled room. If you run to the closed gate after grabbing
the book, ghosting becomes easy. I made the mistake of grabbing the book and
then hiding behind the pillars against the wall.
Eventually, I was forced to reload because of the weird patrols of the zombies
and skeletons. I found these patrols and the AI behavior the most bizarre of my
Thief experience. I'd love to look in dromed and see why they were acting the
way they were. Their patrols looked random, but they kept walking in circles
and running into each other as if they all wanted to follow one another. And
for some reason they kept wanting to walk around me. They had the whole room to
aimlessly wander around but kept colliding into the columns near me. It was a
good 10 minutes of watching them circle around the pillars near me. They kept
amassing together into clusters like they were magnetically attracted to each
other.
That was quite annoying and I did manage to find a break after 10 minutes and
run to the opening in the wall where these undead things came out of... I
thought I might be escaping the room, but it turned out to be a dead end. 
The
solution to this situation, besides waiting and waiting for 20 minutes in order
to make a run for it out of the columns, was to reload to a previous save. I
practiced grabbing the book by leaning forward into the pedestal. From this
vantage point, I was out of sight of the undead that would enter the room. Thus
it was easy to run back to the closed gate, place the gold skull on the pole,
flip the lever to open the gate, and sneak out. There was a female zombie and
skeleton in the preceding hall, but they gave me no problems.
Once I climbed out of the tomb and back to the city, I felt comfortable in
thinking all of the tension was over. I ran back to the house but found the
corpse of Darren's mother (can't Darren get a break?). After reading the note
on the table which only said "It has begun," all chaos ensued. First,
I heard a zombie in one of the nearby rooms and then a tumultuous battle
erupted outside in the city. Fortunately, the author didn't give the undead any
upper hand. I saw the single hammerite guard take out two zombies and a
skeleton by himself. Some servants and even a kungfu Raoul went into the fray
as well. I was watching the spectacle from the comfort of total darkness in the
house doorframe. Once all the undead outside were killed, I ran out to find
more darkness to hide in because there was an agitated zombie in Darren's house
that would eventually find his way to the ruckus in the streets. Once I rested
in some shadows of the streets, I saw a human guard keep the zombie subdued
with constant slashes.
My last objective was to make it to the docks and hide in a storage crate near
the ship. I peeked around the corner and witnessed some more melees at the
docks... The poor fishmonger was stuck behind his booth while an apparition
continuously shot flying skulls into him. It was comical in a macabre way. It
was pretty fun to watch all of this, especially when a nearby bank teller and
nobleman walked into the docks and aggravated the undead. After the poor people
received some poundings, they ran off with the undead in hot pursuit... leaving
the docks empty of any aggressive AI. I simply walked out of my shadow and
jumped into the water; mantling onto a loading dock with crates ended the
mission. I said it was Dies Irae (Days of Wrath) for the Townspeople, but
really it was the undead that suffered... they killed a fishmonger and that's
it.
Last edited by Hexameron; 01-11-2008 at 11:18 PM.
- 01-12-2008, 08:45 PM by Hexameron #152
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FM: The Seven Sisters:
Night One - (The7SistersV2.zip)
Ghost - Success
Perfect Thief - Failed
Time - 03:51:51
Loot - 2855/2999
Pockets Picked - 8/8
Backstabs - 0 Knockouts - 0
Damage dealt - 0 Damage taken - 0
Healing taken - 0 Kills - 0
Secrets Found - 4/5
Comments - This first
installment of The Seven Sisters series is among the finest
FM's I've ever played and Lady Rowena, the author, is an incredible
talent. 
"Night
One" is the first of three parts, and yet I almost reached 4 hours of game
time (and a good 6 hours of playing) on this first mission. There were so many
places to go and objectives to fulfill that I'm surprised it didn't take me
longer. Had I continued to look for my remaining loot and one secret, I'm sure
I would add 2 or more hours to my timestamp. Ghosting was not difficult and the
only problems I encountered stemmed from clumsiness on my part, especially in
the haunt crypt and around the thieves at the market.
General Notes
-Although there was a "Prologue" mission, it barely lasted three
minutes for me and consisted of finding Basso's house. In the actual first
mission, "Night One," I had to deal with some sensitive guards after
they battled a zombie outside of Basso's house. Only three guards were alerted
and I could run off into the narrow alleys to my left and let them calm down.
-Thankfully, many patches of shadow in this mission were dark enough that I
routinely dealt with AI walking into me who never even muttered a first alert.
-I found it odd that Garrett was only given one lock pick. I had to leave many
doors half picked, but the author explains in the darkloader notes that this is
normal.
-Trying to pick up the sword in the kiln of the blacksmith's shop or walking
close to Dr. Knox's metal crate of bones proved to be hazardous and caused
damage.
-I had to get used to some scripted AI behaviors: some of the thieves feigned a
"search" look (like T1's "Assassins") and the bluecoat next
to the monkey kept routinely saying, "Here chicky chicky chicky." At
first I thought I was spotted, but realized it was part of his scripted patrol.
It was hilarious to observe this ape, "Dolly," in a full alerted
state... I think of all the creatures I've encountered (thieves, haunts),
nothing attacked faster than that thing. That little monkey had moves like a
Shaolin monk and I'm glad it was caged. I was also happy to receive a key for a
guard's lockbox after placing a donut onto the monkey's plate. I thought for
sure this would be a secret, but it didn't give me a "Found Secret"
message.
-Sometimes closing doors or dousing torches put AI on second alert. I had some
serious problems in the mechanist complex and could not stop the female
mechanist w/ crossbow from searching after closing nearby doors or dousing a
gas lamp, which I needed to do in order to sneak back from Murdock's room. I
think I succeeded in not upsetting her only by sheer luck and plenty of
reloads.
-I couldn't find all of the townspeople to cure. I think I managed to cure five
people including Jenivere, but I couldn't satisfy the optional objective to
heal all of them.
-For some reason none of the party guests in the fenced-in area could see
through the fence. I could run by with a full yellow gem and a red bar and not
upset anyone. But if I tried picking the lock of the door to the building,
everyone panicked and yelled for the guards... of course, the door could only
be half picked anyway. 
-I don't think the watcher outside of the mechanist compound could see Garrett
either... or maybe its range of vision was limited because I could pretty much
run across the bright streets and not even arouse a chirp sound; I certainly
never made it freeze yellow, either.
-I got frustrated in the hammerite cathedral because I was confused about what
Malthus's journal was supposed to be. I thought the open book next to his
corpse was the journal. I mean, I was convinced it was because
it read like one. But my objective for it didn't tick off, even though I also
read Knox's journal in his lab. After retracing steps for other reasons, I
realized I missed an obvious area above the potions store. I failed to see the
first time that a ladder extended upwards to a room above, which contained
Malthus's real journal hidden behind a frobbable banner. I also thought that
the hint about a holy water vial in a secret compartment was in the same room
with Malthus's corpse. Only later did I learn that there was a real
hammerite complex to explore... I just assumed that the
cathedral was synonymous with the complex.
-Although moss arrows were scarce, I used almost all of them to speed things up
in the lobby of the mechanist complex and in the top-floor hallway of the
Sister's building. The Sister could be frobbed (or picked) for her amulet (it
was a blue gem), but she and her mechanist bodyguard had small patrols
throughout her house. It was tough to take advantage of a break between them
without being able to run quickly, so I mossed the entire hallway outside of
her bedroom.
-I got concerned about the whole Basso escape premise in the mechanist complex.
I had some problems with Basso. Naturally, I hit the acolyte bell so that all
guards assembled in the chapel. After releasing Basso, though, I had some
issues. First, I kept running out of time before one of the mechanist's would
leave the chapel, who I guess to wanted to resume his patrol? Everytime Basso
and I would be running down the hallway about to enter the lobby, the chapel
doors would open and some stray guard would see and attack Basso. My second
issue was that Basso would sometimes stop or get stuck in corners for a while,
which didn't help alleviate the situation with the chapel. The only solution I
relied on was running ahead of Basso so I could keep frobbing the acolyte bell,
which reset everyone to stay in the chapel. After doing that, I just prayed to
see Basso come walking into the lobby and successfully make it out the door.
Eventually this worked and he must have got home all by himself because I
didn't follow him after he left the mechanist complex... Yet five minutes later
I got an "Objective Completed" message that he arrived home.
Last edited by Hexameron; 01-12-2008 at 08:51 PM.
- 01-15-2008, 06:29 PM by pavlovscat #153
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Originally
Posted by goldsla 
Well, I may have one person on the hook. This is from an email
regarding one of the LootThroughs:
We'll see if she follows through. I hope so. I have encouraged her to post her
results once she starts stepping out on her own.
Hello, all! That person would be me! Two
Fathers was my first successful Ghost, but I'm not claiming it as an authentic
success since I played pretty much directly from goldsla's LootThrough. I've
always played that if it moves, blackjack it! After seeing the LootThroughs, I
thought that maybe I could Ghost, so I gave it a try. Having
the LootThrough was a great help to get me pointed in the right direction.
Without it, I probably wouldn't have tried. I must say that there is a certain
sense of accomplishment in a successful round - even with the LootThrough.
I am about to try Love Story I, which is one of my favorites, on my own with
the LootThrough there only if I need it. I will post my results including any
cheating. Once I get a bit more familiar with Ghosting, I'll progress to trying
some strictly on my own.
I must say that this is a great way to extend the life of older missions. I now
have a compelling reason to go back and re-play them. It is certainly much
harder than just whacking everybody.
Later!
~pav
- 01-15-2008, 07:23 PM by Hexameron #154
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Originally
Posted by pavlovscat
Hello, all! That person would be me! Two
Fathers was my first successful Ghost, but I'm not claiming it as an authentic
success since I played pretty much directly from goldsla's LootThrough.
Hi pavlovscat (did he make them salivate, too? ).
It's good to see another ghoster out there and congratulations on your first
successful ghost. I remember how thrilled I was when I ghosted my first FM,
"Waterlogged." I hope you'll stick around here and even post some
reports when you can. 
Originally
Posted by pavlovscat
I now have a compelling reason to go back and re-play them. It is certainly much harder than just whacking everybody.
You know, I think what turned me onto ghosting was how boring and easy
blackjacking became for me. That was my default mode of playing when I first
started Thief. But frankly, I didn't know any better. When I learned about the
revolutionary Lytha's Style, I realized there was more to Thief than shooting
guards with broadheads on the Normal difficulty. Many years ago, I discovered a
TTLG post by Sneak about this strange "Ghosting" style. I read clayman's
rules, tried ghosting, and I never went back to my old way of playing. In fact,
to this day I only play Thief OM's or FM's as a ghoster (though I might go on
"blackjack runs" to either search for loot or find a way to progress
in the mission when I'm really stuck).
While it is certainly the most challenging playing mode, it really is the most
fun, too. I hope you continue to find ghosting a rewarding and ultimately fun
experience in Thief.
- 01-16-2008, 05:38 AM by goldsla #155
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Originally
Posted by pavlovscat
Hello, all! That person would be me! ...
Later!
~pav
All I can say is welcome! 
- 01-16-2008, 12:13 PM by pavlovscat #156
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Originally
Posted by Hexameron
I took screenshots of my various stages to accomplish this, but for some reason they didn't save to my Thief directory.
I've had this problem before when taking screenshots. I also don't know why. Generally, if I exit Thief completely & restart the game, the screenshots work again. For a really prime shot, I make a hard save at that point so that I can go back in later & try it again. It's a pita, but it has the advantage of working.
Hi pavlovscat (did he make them salivate, too? ).
I'm talking about cats here. Cats rule, dogs drool! I
have 8 of the furry varmints, and THEY've trained ME! 
- 01-16-2008, 12:25 PM by Hexameron #157
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Originally
Posted by pavlovscat
Generally, if I exit Thief completely & restart the game, the screenshots work again. For a really prime shot, I make a hard save at that point so that I can go back in later & try it again.
Interesting, and thanks for sharing this. I'll experiment more and see if I can get my screenshots working again. I gave up after my failed attempt in "Ghost Town" and I really wanted to show off my work with those spiders.
I'm talking about cats here. Cats rule, dogs drool! I
have 8 of the furry varmints, and THEY've trained ME!
Oh, I used to have four cats myself. I remember one had excessive
drooling problems, though I can't remember if I took her into the vet for it
(this was 10 years ago). Cat's definitely rule, but they can also drool 
- 01-19-2008, 09:20 PM by Peter Smith #158
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FM: Bad Debts
Ghost - Success (with
some help)
Perfect Thief - Failed
Time - 07:36:00
Loot - 3012/3682
Pockets Picked - 8/0 (??)
Locks Picked 12
Backstabs - 0, Knockouts - 0
Damage dealt - 0, Damage taken - 0
Healing taken - 0, Kills - 0
Secrets Found - 0/0
Consumables used - 1 moss (unnecessary)
Comments
Bad Debts, a city mission with lots of areas to explore, is Melan's first
mission. I was pleasantly surprised to find that it is one of the best maps I
have played in terms of up-and-down, vertical exploration. The architecture is
quite good, too. In the first few minutes, I thought that there was not much to
it. High walls with no place to go. Wrong! That is because, initially, I was
mostly staying on the ground. You need to constantly inspect the terrain for
vertical and jumping opportunities. This is a Thieves Highway with no highway,
only an obscure trail. You have to work (or play) hard to find most of the loot
– it is not just sitting around waiting to be picked up. I must have missed
quite a few places based on my loot total.
One negative about the mission is that the story is a little thin, so the main
motivation was exploration for its own sake. That worked for me because the
exploration aspect of it was so good. Another problem was that sometimes clues
are missing or obscure. If you go everywhere it falls into place most of the
time. I had to go to TTLG to figure out how to exit and end the mission. A few
more signs here and there with house names and street names would have helped,
but the lack of clear directions may be one thing that gave the mission its
charm.
As usual for me, I ghosted this in my first play, as I am not too fond of practicing
to get a better score. In the first part of the mission, there are not too many
AI to contend with, so the exploration is kind of relaxed and a lot of fun.
Later, more AI show up and it becomes more tense.
The first real ghosting opportunity I found was in a thief's room in a coal
cellar. The thief makes a quick patrol with a lot of random switch backs. I had
to dash in there and frob items one at a time and get back quickly. A metal
grate at the entrance to the room presented a slight problem. I could have used
one of my three moss arrows, but I wanted to save them. It turns out that moss
hoarding was unnecessary. Moss is not needed anywhere. It is just convenient in
a few places. Getting out of that coal cellar was interesting, too. Like many
parts of the mission, the entry is a one-way trip.
Later I came across a locked steel door at the end of hall, not far from the
starting point. I looked high and low, far and wide, for ages and could not
find a key. Eventually I found some gunpowder barrels and a fire arrow, so I
saved the game and blew the door open. Lots of stuff in there! So I figured
that there must be a way in at some point, and I should be patient. I reloaded
and went on.
Eventually I found a semi-secret passage by flipping a switch near the ground
and finding it opened a door way up high. This was not at all obvious and could
have been easily missed. A green spider in there is easily ghosted. The passage
then led a place with four giant stone statues, above the "Seeing Square".
I couldn't figure out what to do there, but eventually it dawned on me. This is
the beginning one of the best jumping and climbing puzzles I can remember. I
won't spoil you with details (PM me if you want to know), but below is the
location you finally arrive at, a long distance away:
To reach this point, one climbs up from the ground level. A big loot stash is
waiting for all your effort. Later I found a note that gave me a subtle clue
about this area, which I think is called Keywell. Too late. I might not have
understood the note if I had not already done it.
At some point I found a letter in the lender's house that triggers a sequence
of a new objectives. First I had to go find a double crosser, then an armorer,
and finally Garrett's landlord's key. At some point in this sequence, the
number of AI increase significantly, so some places that were easy before
become impassible. This is where the ghosting fun begins. This rather ingenious
mission design allows you to become familiar with the basic map and then figure
it out again under more adverse circumstances.
If one is alert, one might remember reading where the landlord was to be found,
so one could snag his key. I wasn't alert, having just had an unmentionable
examination that required sedation 
.
So off I went to TTLG, where I got the basic location but not the ghosting method.
The landlord was in the Coronet Tavern, a place that I had already explored.
But now, with the new AI, it became for me the hardest ghosting problem in the
mission.
I tried for a long time to get inside the tavern from the front door. There are
two innocents there, the landlord with his key and another guy with a purse.
One or both of them always raised a fuss when I rounded the corner into the
main room, although the guards were no problem at all. Previously, before the
AI count increased, I had found a few routes out of the tavern but only one
route in (the front door), which was now foreclosed. I next decided to try to
make it in from the tower next door, the one with pipes and metal structures,
which I had previously used as an exit from the tavern. I could not find a way
up to the top of the metal tower from anywhere but inside the tavern, so that
was out.
After a lot of hunting, a light came on in my addled head, and I saw another
way. There is an overhanging roof not far from the tavern (the tower is nowhere
in sight) that has wood on the bottom of the eave that will accept a rope
arrow. This is the kind of roof with a sharp edge you can hardly ever get over,
so I had previously ignored it. Sure enough, this seemed impossible at first,
as I just fell back down the rope after each mantle attempt. I finally stepped
back a way so the arrow would land in the wood more horizontally (also making
for a narrow target), and that gave me the purchase I needed to mantle above
the sharp edge. Then I was surprised I could climb the steep roof beyond the
edge, and finally, I was surprised that I could mantle up over a rampart at the
top of the steep roof. This clever design is typical of this mission. Routes
that look difficult turn out to be possible, as opposed to the more common
approach of making a route that is obvious after you see it.
Once I got on the high ramparts, I went to the other side and dropped down onto
a brick bridge that connected me through a window to a stone building next to
the tavern. The stone building has holes in the wood floors or ceilings,
depending on which way you are going. I had previously roped up to this point
from within the tavern, but I did not attempt to get up onto the ramparts,
because it looked impossible. Turns out it was not impossible. Anyway I roped
down through the holes and entered the tavern the back way. But that was not
the end of it. The landlord tended to spot me whenever I entered the main
tavern room from that side. Many busts and reloads later, I figured out that
the landlord goes on patrol but sometimes he pauses for a long time between
patrols, and I was beating my brains out during one of those long pauses. After
a while, the landlord decided to go on patrol, which allowed me to dash across
the room to a shadow while his back was turned. Then on his second patrol I
nabbed the key. Whew!
Another AI in the tavern was wearing a purse that I think was impossible to get
in ghost mode. He was in bright light, and either he or the landlord would
always see me if I went for the purse. I could be wrong, because (I found
later) Dafydd tested the mission, and he usually suggests corrections to issues
like this.
It was no problem getting back out. I took the easy route out by crawling pipes
to the metal tower and dropping down to a door frame.
Having snatched the landlord's key, the use for it became readily apparent. It
was that steel door I had tried exploding several hours previously! So I went
in there, got the landlord's loot, and came out to find glowing glyphs near my
suite of rooms. Frobbing these glyphs presented a clue on how to complete my
last objective, to exit the area. The clue made absolutely no sense to me, and
it turns out to be irrelevant.
So it was off to TTLG again, to learn that there are two ways to exit in
Expert. One involves a key, stolen by a cat, and using said key to open a gate.
This route was reported to be impossible in ghost mode. I found that key just
to test this assertion. The key was very hard to find, but it was a fun
challenge nevertheless. And the assertion was correct. The gate was swarming
with AI, and what’s more, they shot arrows at me.
The ghostable exit was reported to be the back door of a thief's place. Even
that spoiler was not very helpful, because there are three thief places in the
town, none of them are marked on the map, and there was no way for me to know,
unless I missed something obvious, where to look. To make a long story (two
hours of hunting) short, as I think it should be, the correct exit is located
near the Hammerite Seminary. Lots of people were confused about this. It was
not my drugged state.
Speaking of Hammerite Seminary, another very nice ghosting opportunity is to
pick-pocket a gold hammer worn by a priest in the seminary's back yard. This
was a tricky move that involved running on the edge of a wall and timing it
just right to get back to shadow.
Apart from that purse in the tavern, I have no idea where the missing 670 loot
are. I think I will go back for a BJ run to find out.
In spite of a few issues with the exit, the mission was great fun. Thanks,
Melan.
EDIT: I went back and found all the loot in BJ mode. Got all but 150 by
extensive hunting (around 15 hours), and needed help at TTLG to find the last
150. At least three items cannot be obtained without a ghost bust.
Last edited by Peter Smith; 02-06-2008 at 10:13 AM.
- 01-26-2008, 02:04 PM by Klatremus #159
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FM: The Seven Sisters -
Prologue & Night One
Ghost - Success
Perfect Thief - Success
Supreme Ghost - Failed (by
the closest margin imaginable)
Perfect Supreme - Failed
Time - 3:11:09
Loot - 2999/2999 (Supreme: 2729)
Pockets Picked - 3/8
Locks Picked 17
Backstabs - 0, Knockouts - 0
Damage dealt - 0, Damage taken - 0
Healing taken - 0, Kills - 0
Secrets Found - 5/5
Consumables - 5 Holy Water Vials & 7 Water Arrows
I know Hexameron just ghosted this mission, but figured it was ok since I went
for Supreme.
Comments:
After finishing my Thief Gold Supreme Ghost run, I decided to turn the tables
and try a fresh fan mission pack. And what a pick I made! The Seven Sisters is
right up there among the very best. Any fan creation good enough to be compared
with the likes of Calendra’s Legacy and The Seventh Crystal certainly deserves
praise. That comparison in itself is an achievement. I entered this mission
pack with blank sheets, as I had not yet played Lady Rowena’s first creation:
‘Rowena’s Curse’, but you can probably guess what my next adventure will be...
I’d played the entire pack through before starting the Ghost run. Mostly to
make proper loot lists in an attempt to perfect my ghosting. I got help for a
few pieces of hard loot, but far from what I would call using a walkthrough.
Since the first two missions are city-missions, a quick runthrough would also
familiarize me with essential shortcuts and potential pitfalls. I had a feeling
plain Ghost wouldn’t be the hardest, but as I also strive to accomplish Supreme
Ghost, I knew I was in for a challenge. I went through the loot list and made a
route in my head first. My initial thoughts went to the objective about curing
all the plagued citizens. For Supreme Ghost, even this optional objective was
required. That meant I had to pick up at least 7 water arrows and enough holy
water vials to cure them all. Some can be cured in twos, but I figured at least
5 vials would be necessary. I generally like it when one or more of the
objectives conflict with the rules. It makes for a more diverse way of playing,
not just the usual sneak-and-loot approach. Supreme doesn’t say anything about
secrets or pickpockets, so those numbers were irrelevant. Sometimes I go for
maximum pickups also (meaning bringing along everything I can find), but since
Supreme specifies staying away from unnecessary pickups, I decided against it
this time. Moreover, the challenges for Supreme were no 1st alerts, no moss
arrows and no removing of light sources (torches, candles, lamps). Personally,
I think light switches should be allowed, as they can be turned back on without
leaving a trace. An additional challenge was to relock all doors (if possible)
and close all gates.
I have no experience with Dromed, but I suspect the sound to travel further or
stronger than usual. Especially when opening and picking doors or using rope
arrows I noticed this. I had to listen through most doors to time the patrols
on the other side. Sometimes I also had to lighten the string tension on the
bow, to soften the impact of the rope arrow.
Heading for Knox’s
The prologue was easy enough, just grabbed the note and the key off the table
and headed upstairs. Night One started there. Oddly, a lantern was in my
inventory. I left the blackjack in my room and brought the rest. Basso’s shop
key cannot be dropped back so I was stuck with it.
There was a clash between the outside guards and a zombie in the streets outside
Basso’s. This made them edgy, so I replayed the scenario until only 4 was
alerted. The most I experienced was 6. That zombie did not count against my
objective to cure all the plagued victims. There is no holy vial anywhere near
so that would have been an early bust.
The thieves at Market Square did fake alerts as part of their patrols. No bust
of course, but made me jump on occasion. Did the loot by the fruit stands
behind the locked double-doors first. Had to approach from the east, as the
area between the ramp to the thieves’ hideout and judge Fowley’s main entrance
was too bright. I couldn’t pick the lock without going yellow either, and that
caused serious problems considering I had 4 thieves to dodge. Good thing the
doors were easy to pick. The patrollers could hear me pick the money box also.
It was a sweaty few minutes, but I got out in the end.
The dairy store was easy. Didn’t close the door entirely while looting the
place, to better monitor the patrollers outside. I took the donut also, as it
was needed to obtain loot later. The rope arrow through the portcullis in the
southeast is also very much a necessary pickup. I did the thieves’ hideout
next. Maneuvered in between the empty food stands at the market and reached the
dark wall east of Oldgate Close. Realized I could stay on the ramp while the
thief walked up, but not as he came down again. The best time to enter was when
he did his fake search and the stationary thief was turned west. The guy inside
had a short patrol and stopped for a few seconds in each room. Found the best
way of moving was creep-crouch-running, a pace I rarely use. It proved to be
fast yet silent. Again the money box gave me trouble. The man downstairs heard
my tools if he was in the western room, so I had to unlock it in two rounds. I
followed the thief outside when returning to the streets.
I entered Fowley’s by rope arrowing up the wooden block above the portcullis.
The female thief caught me once or twice there. Fowley’s cellar key is
necessary to proceed, although it should be dropped back into his room before
ending the mission. I cleaned the middle floor and the wine cellar and returned
the key immediately. I left the sewer door locked but open so that I wouldn’t
need the key later. I like to get things done quickly, otherwise I always
forget. Sent the elevator back to the top also.
Initially, I had planned on bringing the 4 water arrows from Conor’s, but he
alerted to me picking his door. I brought the arrow from the sewer pour out
instead. Most of the canal was dark at the bottom, and ended up being a great
way to move about. The problem was finding quiet places to jump in.
Surprisingly, I could loot the bakery without trouble. The owner didn’t seem to
mind the lockpicks. I ascended the police station through the west window. That
way I could stay close enough to make sure nobody heard the arrow impact. There
was a tiny portion of shade in the window where I could stay completely
hidden (see image). From the roof I entered sewer maintenance 1 and opened
the canal gate (behind the zombie’s back). I also unlocked the door to
Minerva’s Place and the lower sewer door with the key from the table. The key
couldn’t be dropped back. Is the sewer maintenance 1 key an unnecessary pickup?
Well, from the objectives I had to cure the zombie (later), and the only way to
do that is to pick the door lock. Following Supreme rules that door has to be
relocked, hence it is a required pickup.
I climbed back up the ladder and crossed the roof to the monkey. The top of the
gate wall was good for traversing. The cash box key was a necessary pickup and
disappeared upon use. Neither this loot nor the guard’s purse were hard to
obtain. The coins from the prison cell were tricky though. Sneaking in and out
I followed the guard. If he opened and closed the prison door, nobody said a
word. If I did, the prisoners gave a comment. So I stuck close enough not to
block the door. Dodging his turn at the end of the cell hall was easy. The
prisoners didn’t react to me walking or jumping right in front of them, but one
(I think the circus performer) alerted to me opening the door to the cell with
the coins. I am in doubt whether this is a bust as they are not supposed to
react to me, but I ruled against myself and ended up skipping the loot for
Supreme. I left the police grounds via the wall by the monkey.
The police station roof archer spotted me once before I managed to enter Knox’s
safely. Couldn’t pick the safe in Knox’s underground lab, the female zombie
gave a grunt. Would have to come back later and see if I could figure something
out. Could mean I would have to do with 6 vials total. Cleaned Malthus’ store
and entered Cathedral St. through the back door. I couldn’t pass the guards here
without alerts. Realized I had to come through Stonebridge and East End to
reach the cathedral. I thus headed back through Malthus’ and entered the canal
at East End. Swam west to fetch the 3 water arrows east of Stonebridge and the
secret wine bottle on the roof plateau. Dropped into the canal again on the
south side, after the patrolling swordsman had gone east. Swam back to sewer
maintenance 1 and entered Minerva’s Place from there.
The Hammers
The party by Stonebridge didn’t alert to me as long as I stayed out of their
turf. The bridge fence covered me for the archer also. I passed East End behind
the three guards. One of them turned randomly, while the other two had
predictable angles. Had an honest attempt at reaching Printing Works within Supreme
rules, but failed inevitably. I managed to reach the door by
creep-crouch-strafing as the patroller went north and the stationary guard was
turned east. He has two angles, east and south, but he ended up busting me. If
I made it to the door unseen, picking the lock set him off. Only a comment
though (given he continued to face east), so plain Ghost was still intact. Had
to skip this loot for Supreme. I could only skip 699 total to stay above the
requirement. I still had 429 to go on, but it worried me nevertheless.
The hammer cathedral posed few problems. The cathedral key was necessary and
couldn’t be dropped back, same with the crypt key, except it disappeared upon
use. Took a little time to drop from the bell tower without taking damage.
Needed to frob the ladder back in the fall. The objectives are a little vague
regarding the whole hammer/Martino ordeal, but I assume obtaining the crypt key
is implied. The objective was neither failed nor checked off, it just
disappeared from the list as Brother Martino went to rest. Both the hammer and
the key were nonetheless necessary to finish the mission. Torches were lit in
the main chapel as I placed the holy hammer, but this doesn’t go against any
specific rule. Rule #6 only speaks of removing light sources, with the assumed
intention of lowering the difficulty.
The crypt was much easier than anticipated. All the caskets had dark alcoves
beside them, and the patrols were predictable. To start the elevators in the
hammerite complex I had to turn on the engines by flipping the switch. This is
not a bust in itself, but it had to be turned off also. I solved this problem
by standing on the elevator hitting the top button, then quickly leaned in to
shut off the engines before riding to the top. It seemed the engines only ran
the basement buttons, as the buttons on the top two floors still worked.
The hammer apparitions were difficult to Ghost. Not because there were many
tough spots, but because they didn’t seem to have defined 1st alerts.
Especially in the upper floor hallway, picking the lock to the bedroom with the
holy vial, I had a hard time telling whether the apparitions heard me or not.
Same with the double doors downstairs. Although I cannot give a guarantee I
supremed the complex, it was done as close to perfect as possible. I won’t call
it a bust if I cannot tell the alerts, but I can assure everyone I was more
careful than normal. Whenever I passed a bright area and a hammer was walking
with his side or front towards me, I reloaded. The secret door behind the
bookshelf couldn’t be closed fully. I had to block it by running into it or
putting a vial on the floor (see image). I could not backtrack and exit
through the crypt caves. And I had to finish the mission in my room at Basso’s,
so I could not let the Thelesius objective be the last and close the passage
from the inside. It has been discussed in the Ghost forum to call it a bust
when in doubt, to avoid dilution of the rules, and I agree with that statement.
The bookshelf must be left open, if only ajar, and that is a bust. Sad but
true.
People react differently to a bust. Some say ‘screw it’ and go nuts for the
remainder of the mission, while others accept it and try to finish the mission
clean, as if they never experienced the bust in the first place. I am most
definitely of the latter kind.
A Little Curing
I had to cc (creep-crawl) out the doorway entering Westgate Wharf from the
cathedral grounds. The bright lights and patrollers busted the slightest of
speed enhancement. I dropped into the canal alert-free and cleaned the sewage
room by Nils’ body. Took one of the water arrows floating by the west gate
also. That made 7 total. Then cured the bum below the streets. He went from
patrolling to stationary when cured. He didn’t alert to me after the fact,
except for when I opened the secret grate leading to the lucky coins. This was
too much commotion so he gave a comment. To avoid this I shot him on the north
end of his patrol instead. The streets between Westgate Wharf and Oak Square
were far too crowded, so I backtracked through Cathedral St. and East End.
Looted the party at Stonebridge easily.
Before heading toward the southwestern part of town I decided to cure Jenivere.
I thus went back through Fowley’s basement, opening Basso’s sewer door on the
way. Strangely, this didn’t alert Jenivere. Entered the streets from the roof
near the dairy store. Took the hidden bag of spice from the window in the alley
here also. Muffled the drop with a vial retrieving the arrow, as there was a
fair amount of guards around.
Since the vial from Knox’s basement seemed hopeless, I needed to cure at least
two zombies using only 1 vial. I figured the guy in the bedroom and Jenivere
could be possible, in that order. I opened all the doors at Basso’s and flung a
rope arrow into the adjacent house. The rope had to be far enough out from the
concrete wall to catch dropping from the top, and so close that I could grab
the arrow and fall onto the tiny ledge of Basso’s building, and avoid making
any sound. Looted the chest inside before standing on the windowsill flinging
the healing arrow. The man stopped patrolling but remained highly alert to my
presence. Quickly shut the blinds, descended and grabbed the rope, flew down
the stairs and cured Jenivere. Think I had around 5 seconds left of the potion.
Locked up the shop and left through the sewer. Left the basement door and gate
open for Basso’s return.
The two pieces of loot at Maxim’s were a little tricky, only because the
patrolling lady could see me through the secret panel to the adjacent apartment
(with the caged spider). So I couldn’t eavesdrop to hear when she left the
bedroom. Had to time the patrol by listening from a distance, but that was hard
because the swordsman outside made much noise. The lady commented on me opening
the panel also, so she had to leave and close the door before I could enter.
Also, she didn’t always close the door going into the bedroom with her sleeping
husband. Then she would alert to me opening the hallway door. Finally I got
into the hallway safely, and could frob the doors as she passed.
I entered Olivier’s Clocks striking a rope arrow from outside the inn. Oak
Square and southward was just too crowded to risk traversing. I decided to
attempt a double cure with Olivier and the guard at Oldgate Close. That meant I
could do with only 5 vials total (also skipping the one through the grate at
St. Tennor Square), although it necessitated grabbing the shop key from the
basement. It disappeared upon use. I did that first and unlocked the front
door. That way I could monitor the outside guard and time it with using the
vial. Olivier could be cured from the top floor, leaning out by the ladder.
That saved valuable seconds. He became stationary and alerted if seeing me. I
rushed to the door and creep-crouch-strafed to the left. Anything faster would
set off the guard walking north-south. I didn’t have to enter Oldgate Close,
but could shoot the swordsman zombie through the tunnel (see image). He
resumed his patrol like a normal swordsman. The objective ticked off as that
was 4 people cured besides Jenivere.
The Mechanists
Tried reaching sewer maintenance 2 by passing the mayor’s front doors, but that
was too hard without dousing the torches. Instead I reentered the canal through
Olivier’s window and climbed the ladder north on Archway Walk. I followed one
of the thieves south to St. Tennor Square and hugged the walls to the west to
reach the sewer door. The foot of the big monument helped block the view to one
of the patrollers.
Opened the doors and gates leading to Basso’s basement first, to help him
escape later. Looted the entire mechanist building (dining hall, chapel,
upstairs bedrooms) alert-free. Rufus had a small patrol in his chamber, from
the desk to the bookshelf. He had to be stationed by the shelves when I opened
the door, otherwise he uttered an annoyance. Maya’s key couldn’t be taken
unless reading the book first. Luckily, the key couldn’t be dropped back. Rufus
didn’t mind me picking the chest. Neither Rufus nor Murdock left their rooms upon
sounding the acolyte bell. That was a problem because the security room key had
to be returned to Murdock’s closet. The clunk woke him up so I dropped it on
the carpet instead (see image). Tried putting it on top of the healing
potion, but to no avail. Supreme bust? I must admit I’m in doubt on this one.
The key was returned no more than an inch away from where it lay. But remember,
there are no small or big busts when Ghosting. Either you bust or you don’t. So
I guess this is another bust. Sent everybody to the chapel and quickly freed
Basso. The lockbox key disappeared. Closed the cell gate as he left and ran
upstairs to open the front doors. I didn’t have to turn off the watcher, as
this would also have busted Supreme. The first guard emerged from the chapel no
less than 5 seconds after Basso escaped. I reset the bell and headed for
Maya’s.
This was the toughest place to ghost in the mission. Not only were there few
places to hide, but Maya and the guard had opposing routes. When Maya left her
bedroom the guard would enter 10 seconds later, and vice versa. I could easily
snag her heart and the vase downstairs, but the bedroom was frustrating. The
west corner of the doorway in the hall was the only safe spot to wait for an
opportunity. I stood on the small table at the end of the hall as Maya left the
bedroom. I had only a second or two to work with before the guard would appear
from the stairs and spot me. I also couldn’t let her close the door fully, as
she commented on the noises. I inched down from the table as she came out and
frobbed the door just in time, then rushed inside. Naturally, the hall was tile
and the doorway marble, as if it wasn’t hard enough already. Hid in the
greenhouse doorway as the guard did his round. Leaving the bedroom was the
toughest by far. No shadows whatsoever. I started improvising with the double
doors and eventually found a solution. I stood inside by the southern door, not
hugging it, but positioned an inch or two away. As Maya came, I blocked the
door, and Maya would pass undetected through the other (see image). She
would soon come to a halt and turn, so I had to sneak out before that.
Creep-crouch-running was the most efficient speed. From outside, I could close
the door fully.
Wrap-up
Pulled the acolyte bell one final time and left through the sewers. The Basso
objective ticked off as I neared his apartment. Entered Knox’s lab via the
canal and cured his patient. She became unresponsive to me, so I could finally
pick Knox’s safe and take the final healing vial. Ironically, I didn’t need it
anymore. Closed both the secret doors and the outer gate. Headed back to the
hammerite complex through Minerva’s Place and East End. Destroyed Maya’s heart
and returned via the same route. Finally cured the man in sewer maintenance 1.
He became stationary and very alert. Closed all gates on the way back to
Basso’s and ended the mission in my room.
Summary
- Skipped the lucky coins in the prison cell for Supreme. One of the prisoners
gave a comment when opening the cell door.
- Also skipped the loot at Printing Works for Supreme. The nearby guard gave a
comment when picking the locks, and another one when leaving.
- Couldn’t close the secret bookshelf door exiting the hammerite complex. Had
to obstruct it as it swung shut and leave it ajar. Busts Supreme.
- The security room key couldn’t be returned to Murdock’s closet. The metallic
clunk woke him up. Laid it on the carpet instead. Another Supreme bust.
Last edited by Klatremus; 01-30-2008 at 10:40 AM. Reason: Consumables
Klatremus' Supreme Thief Site - Walkthroughs, Loot Lists & Ghost Reports
- 01-26-2008, 06:27 PM by Peter Smith #160
Peter Smith
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Hi Klatremus. Welcome
back to the ghosting fold. Good to hear from you. The Seven Sisters is
certainly a good series for ghosting. Have fun with the other two.
BTW, I personally think it is more fun to ghost from scratch the first time
rather than with a planned route and (heaven forbid) a loot list. To each his
own, though, and I don't begrudge you that.
- 01-27-2008, 02:38 AM by Klatremus #161
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Hi Peter
What can I say? I am an obsessive perfectionist. 
I
cannot bear the thought of failing Ghost when I know it is achievable. I
absolutely cannot let a mission go until I've found all the loot. And under no
circumstance can I start a Supreme run without knowing the various routes, keys
and necessary pickups. It sounds tedious I know, and would probably be tiresome
to most, but that is honestly the way I like it.
It should also be said that I follow and honor the rules very humbly, in
respect for the modes and the people who made them.
Hehe, it sounds like I am trying to justify my style of play rather than
explaining it.
I really am a nice guy, I promise...
Last edited by Klatremus; 01-27-2008 at 02:52 AM.
Klatremus' Supreme Thief Site - Walkthroughs, Loot Lists & Ghost Reports
- 01-28-2008, 09:40 AM by goldsla #162
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FM: Three Crowns
(Version 1) [Three_Crowns.zip]
Ghost - Failed
Perfect Thief - Failed
Time - 05:26:18
Loot - 10566/11581
Pockets Picked - 11/16
Backstabs - 0 Knockouts - 0
Damage dealt - 0 Damage taken - 0
Healing taken - 0 Kills - 0 Bodies Discovered by Enemies - 1
Secrets Found - 2/5
Comments:
This is a huge, elaborate mission. It is such a pity that it is not ghostable.
I did this mission over 8 weeks, while writing ghosting walkthroughs for the
Love Story series. Needless to say, since I decided not to take notes for this
one (my bad), I may have some of the details wrong. With that caveat, the
mission plot is to retrieve three magical crowns and give them to the Keepers.
The crowns are all supposed to be in a warehouse, but by the time you get
there, they are no longer there, having already been stolen by a bad Hammerite
who is plotting naughtiness. So you have to go the cathedral to retrieve them,
but by the time you do that, they have been stolen again!
So far this has been a fairly standard city-type mission. Lots of patrolling
guards, some interesting climbing, but that's about it. But after the
cathedral, the plot twists, and you have to make your way through an
underground warren of ape-beasts, rat-men, praying mantid beasts, and claymen.
Oh did I fail to mention spiders? Big hairy ones, with fangs and poisonous
drool. Ugh! In any event, the mission takes on a very different ambiance. There
is a bit of a key hunt and lots of climbing. At the end of the mission I had 12
(twelve!!) rope arrows, and I had to abandon one, so there are 13 to be
collected.
In any event, the mission is eminently ghostable, up to a point. That point is
the key hunt. You need to get inside the "pool room" and the only way
in is by opening four unpickable locks. Three of the keys are not too bad. If I
recall correctly there are two copies of one of them, both of which can be pick
pocketed. Another one can be pick pocketed. The third has to be found. As does
the fourth. The problem is with one of the ones that have to be found. It is
guarded by a series of fire elementals. While I was able to make it by the
first set without them alerting (I had to take some damage to do it jumping
from where no sane person would jump), I was unable to penetrate the second
set. In the end I had to take them out with water arrows.
But let's assume that you are good enough to navigate this hazard successfully.
You collect one crown from the boys in the rat suits, another from the chimps
with blow guns, and then you find out that the third and last crown is guarded
by some more fire elementals in a brightly lit area of a room. I'm afraid to
say that the water arrows had to come out again.
After getting the last crown, you return to where the mission started, but you
have the opportunity to re-explore everything looking for more loot and
secrets. I was five and a half hours into the mission, and just did not have
the energy to go on looking. So I just handed over the crowns.
Besides the two areas with the fire elementals mentioned above, there is
another potential ghosting problem. In getting the 2nd crown, you trigger a
trap of purple magic pellets. No big deal since traps are only an issue for
Supreme, but the trap may alert a fire elemental and then kill it. I only know
this because the first time through this area a fire elemental came out and
looked around. I reloaded, was much quieter, but still triggered the trap. By
the time I navigated to the area where the elemental had appeared from, it was
not there. I have to presume that the purple magic pellets from the trap nailed
it as it tried to enter the throne room. But I never saw nor heard it.
I highly recommend this mission, just not for ghosting. I may go back and play
this with my BJ in hand and see if I can find all the loot. This one is tricky
and fun! My only use of consumables was water arrows for the elementals, and I
ended up with forty-three broadheads, twenty-five water arrows, sixteen moss
arrows, three gas arrows, and twelve rope arrows.
Last edited by goldsla; 01-28-2008 at 11:18 AM.
- 01-30-2008, 07:51 PM by goldsla #163
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The Time That Has Passed
FM: The Time That
Has Passed [thetimethathaspassed.zip]
Ghost - Failed
Perfect Thief - Failed
Time - 04:48:20
Loot - 3150/3150
Pockets Picked - 19/20
Backstabs - 0 Knockouts - 77
Damage dealt - 77 Damage taken - 0
Healing taken - 0 Kills - 0 Bodies Discovered by Enemies - 0
Secrets Found - 8/8
Comments:
This is the sequel to Two Fathers. Unfortunately, unlike Two Fathers, it cannot
be ghosted. Trust me. I gave it my all. It was designed to be reasonably
challenging for the non-ghoster, and has several elements that make ghosting
impossible.
The first problem is with the objective to retrieve a clock. The clock is
located in a building that you have to access via a balcony in plain sight of a
stationary guard on another balcony. To make matters worse, the only way to get
to either balcony is through climbing a rope arrow in plain sight of a second
stationary guard on the street. Oh well.
There is another stationary guard, in a protected and well lit alcove, who
prevents further traffic down a necessary street. And, I think another
stationary guard or three at other non-ghostable key locations. To make matters
worse, new AIs keep spawning as you progressed through the mission, so much so,
that if ghosting, you might have been blocked by too much traffic! Seriously,
ultimately there were over 60 guards in this mission.
After hitting the 2nd or 3rd roadblock, I decided that discretion may be the
better part of valor, but this was not a mission for the discrete, and I pulled
out my blackjack.
So instead of ghosting I ended up trying for KOs on all the AIs and attaining
all the loot. I believe that in this I succeeded. Perfect thief would not have
been possible even if ghosting had been. Some of the loot is in a boarded up
alley. Property damage was necessary to gain access.
In all, this is a good mission with some satisfying puzzles and challenges, but
not one for ghosters.
- 02-02-2008, 02:06 PM by Klatremus #164
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FM: The Seven Sisters -
Night Two
Ghost - Success
Perfect Thief - Success
Supreme Ghost - Failed (6
first alerts & 3 light switches flipped)
Perfect Supreme - Failed
Time - 3:45:18
Loot - 6009 out of 6009 (Supreme: 4524)
Pockets Picked - 4/20
Locks Picked 36
Backstabs - 0, Knockouts - 0
Damage dealt - 0, Damage taken - 0
Healing taken - 0, Kills - 0, Bodies Discovered - 1
Secrets Found - 3/3
Consumables - 6 Holy Water Vials & 8 Water Arrows
Comments:
Night two started similar to the first. Even though I didn’t pick up the
blackjack the night before, it was in my inventory now. So were 2 water arrows,
4 moss arrows and 2 rope arrows. There were a total of 9 zombies in need of
healing. I had a hope of only requiring 6 vials, plus the additional 7 water
arrows. The key ring couldn’t be taken until having read Basso’s note. It was
also stuck to my inventory.
East
Grabbed the secret purse on the dead guy in the sewer and went for the mech
lab. The patrollers were easy to dodge, but the iron beast commented on opening
the access grate. Thus skipped the nugget in there for Supreme. Exited to
Marked Square and healed the dairy store owner in the streets. She stopped
patrolling but didn’t alert to me. If I came close though, she ran into her
store and closed the door, still without alerting. If I opened the door now to
loot the place, she commented, so I took the money before curing her. The guy
on the balcony (Robert) saw me a couple of times, but all in all the streets
were empty compared to the night before.
Had to loot Basil’s from the sewer, as the door here was unlocked. Dodged Basil
in the tunnel as he did his route. Brought 4 water arrows from Conor’s. This
night he didn’t mind me. The streets south of the police station were
completely empty. An officer sat sleeping by a table on the east side. I could
thus grab the candlestick on the hanging roof with a rope arrow. The zombie
baker alerted to me picking his door. This busts Supreme, as it cannot be skipped
due to the optional objective. He started patrolling the streets after that. I
opened the canal gate in the maintenance room and fetched the holy vial from
the underground alley. Managed to heal the station roof archer, the baker and
the guy locked in the upper library with the same vial. They were all easily
accessible from the roof up the ladder from sewer maintenance 1. The archer
resumed his normal patrol. The baker acted similarly to the dairy store owner;
he stopped, but ran home as I came close. The man in the library became
stationary and highly alert.
The police station moreover wasn’t hard. Used the small dark spot in the
northwest corner by the gambling table to grab the coins and the cell key. The
latter disappeared upon use. Opened the front doors for Keef (the prisoner),
otherwise he would get killed by the patrolling guard. East End was very
crowded, so I dropped into the canal from the top floor window and headed for
Minerva’s Place.
Next up was Mrs. Peacock’s through the inn. Nothing much to report, except for
the lady furthest down the hall gave a comment when opening the door. Had to
skip the 200 loot there for Supreme.
Entered the canal afterwards and ascended at north end of Archway’s Walk. Roped
onto its roof from just inside the gates to Manor Street. It was hard to mantle
without thumping my boots and alerting the archer in the nearest guard tower.
He turned 180 with random intervals. Looted both apartments accessible from the
overhang. Dropped into the streets and headed for St. Tenor Square.
Mayor’s
Snuck along the western walls of St. Tenor Square and mantled the pipe in the
corner. The three guards had to be timed to avoid alerts. I encountered a huge
problem inside the mayor’s house. Zoraide and the zombie (Angelica) didn’t react
to one another, but after I cured the girl, Zoraide ended up killing her, and
that failed the ‘do not let innocents die’-objective. I could cure her in the
dark, but then she ended up seeing Zoraide and went looking, again getting
killed. This was a tough nut to crack. I noticed the area around the double
doors exiting the living room was quite dark. I had a theory that if I cured
the zombie right before it entered the living room, Angelica would be
positioned just outside the doors, in the dark. Then when Zoraide came along,
she would pass her and close the doors, thus not letting Angelica see her.
Well, I managed to cure the zombie outside by shooting a holy arrow as it
opened the door. Patrolling enemies stop for half a second when opening doors,
so there was a short window of opportunity. I shot her from the western side of
the living room, as the other end is too bright to pass unnoticed. The shot
didn’t have to be spot on, as the splash healed a small radius around the
impact area. The doors remained open though, but that didn’t matter. The rules
don’t make you close doors someone else opens. When Zoraide came from behind
though, she got blocked by Angelica standing in the doorway. There she was,
totally oblivious, just bumping into her (see image). The problem now was
that she would nudge Angelica forward until she entered the lights, and I was
back at square one. This nudging took a few minutes, so I decided to leave the
zombie uncured and return later. Perhaps I could do it as the last objective
and finish the mission quickly.
The rest of the house was looted first. The safe with the stone key was tough
to pick. It took two changes of lockpicks. Zoraide had the bedroom as part of
her patrol and there were no shadows whatsoever (for Supreme you cannot turn
off lights). I had to stop picking halfway through and hide in the dark nook
outside her door. On the second picking round I got the key. Both enemies
alerted easily to doors opening and closing, making the process more tedious.
Sir Giles Deville
I continued through sewer maintenance 2 to Deville’s manor. Had to lighten the
string tension on the bow when ascending the well, to avoid alerting the guards
in the yard. Striking the arrow with full force upset them. I also had to
mantle the floating barrel to shoot the rope; it could not be done from the
water. And the barrel slowly sank, so I had to shoot quickly.
There were 4 patrollers and 1 stationary guard in the yard. The stationary one
was the toughest by far. He only had two angles; south and east. To reach
Deville’s bedroom balcony I roped up the northern rafter (see image). I
had to time the archer and the swordsman on the walkway, and the stationary
guard had to face south. I crept up, but didn’t jump off the rope. Instead I
swung around and grabbed the arrow, thus quietly landing on the fence.
Creep-crouch-walked onto the balcony floor alert-free. The drop down to the
grass was too high, so I had to go for the walkway on the south side instead.
Fastened a rope into the rafter from the inside. Hopping or mantling onto the
fence was too alerting, climbing the rope kept me more hidden. Could not
prevent a comment from the stationary guard leaping for the walkway. I managed
to avoid the gazes of all the others, and am quite proud of that, but the guard
could not be fooled. Why couldn’t I climb down the same side as I ascended?
Well, I could, but I couldn’t retrieve my arrow at the same time. Plus, I could
only reach the arrow from above the fence line, and then the torch lit me up so
much that people saw me fall (in addition to taking damage). If you are ok with
leaving an arrow behind though, I suggest doing that. I prefer a 1st alert. Of
course, plain Ghost mode allows either.
The next task was to get the basement key. Luckily, it couldn’t be dropped
back, so I only needed one trip to the bedroom. But that trip was a hard one!
The fence of the lower walkway had shadows just behind the last pillar before
the doorway. I stood there and awaited my chance. I studied the woman and the
swordsman for a long time, probably 10 rounds. The woman walked faster, and
caught up with the swordsman about every 3rd-4th round. The perfect time to
follow was when the swordsman was 10-12 feet in front of the woman, and they
were both entering the doorway. I had to hug the woman’s back until I entered
the stationary guard’s view. The pillar hid me until about 3 tile lengths away
from the doorway. From there on I had to creep-crouch-strafe. The doorway
eventually blocked his view and I could stand up and continue. If timing it
correctly, the woman had now almost reached the end of the hall and had caught
up with the swordsman. They still had their back turned for a few more seconds
until they would turn around and head back. I needed to get into the dark
cranny to the right (see image) before either of them turned. I
couldn’t run; that would set them off with comments. The fastest way to move
undetected was by running and tapping the crouch key. Upon reaching the cranny,
I crouched and let them pass. This was a safe spot as long as I crouched.
Fetched the key and used the same method out again. The swordsman this time had
to reach the doorway right before the woman, so that she had to pass him
outside. This time it took me only 3 tries to reach the yard shadows without
alerts.
In order to save Ophelia, I had to open both the side- and the front gates.
They had operating levers in the side yard and the east guard tower,
respectively. It was a little troublesome passing the bright area between the
statues to get to the side gate. The problem was again the stationary guard. He
had to be turned south for the entire move. Creep-crouch-strafing was again the
fastest way. The front yard contained two guards. One was stationed, randomly
facing east and north. The other mostly patrolled, although he stopped at one
point. The stationary guard had to face north while I slowly followed the
patroller east. I could just sneak around the right corner before he turned and
headed west. Used the same method back. The guards in the basement were the
most wary I have ever seen. I could barely crouch-run anywhere without getting
a remark, even from the drunk. There were lots of shadows though, and ghosting
is all about patience, so I reached Ophelia in the end. As I cured and
approached her, she ran back to the brothel. Nobody alerted to her, so I was
clean. Made it upstairs and closed the front gates like before.
I could not drop down the well without alerting every guard in the yard, so I
had to figure something else out. Whether I landed with a crack on the barrel
or a splash in the water, I could hear Deville’s grumpy people looking for me.
I turned my attention to the guard towers instead. Both archers turned 180
degrees randomly, plus the windows were big enough to enter. However, the
archers always swung to the east, so I had to enter either window on their west
side. There wasn’t enough room to squeeze past the archer in the east tower; I
would have to nudge, and that is not allowed (only as a last resort in Ghost),
so I had to leave through the west guard tower. Unfortunately, the stationary
swordsman commented on me opening the door. An inevitable 1st alert. When guards
alert to picking locks or opening/closing doors, they take a long time to
settle from it, as much as 3-4 minutes. Therefore, if I closed this door right
after the guard gave a comment, he wouldn’t give an additional remark. However,
if I waited for him to settle, then closed the door, he would comment again. So
I guess there were 2 first alerts here. I could watch the archer from the
ladder without getting spotted. I crept up on the west side and waited for him
to turn, then snuck into the window (see image). Had to fling a rope arrow
into the opposite wall in order to reach the streets safely. Muffled the drop
with a vial as I grabbed the arrow.
This archer acted very weird though, there’s gotta be something wrong with his
visual alert settings. He could spot me even though I was completely dark
either on the rope, in the streets or in the dark doorway leading to the yard.
Good thing he turned occasionally, otherwise I wouldn’t have been able to leave
Deville’s proper with normal Ghost intact.
The Brothel
Could traverse Manor Street northwards below the torch, given the archer and
the swordsman were turned away. Cleaned the secret apartment easy enough. There
was a swordsman with a lantern patrolling here, together with a normal
swordsman and an archer. They all patrolled from Deville’s to the brothel, so
there was plenty of time to move. Grabbed both holy vials in the area (they
made the last ones needed) and headed for the parlor house.
Had to time the patrolling thief when opening the door to the bar/gambling
area. He patrolled north-south, and I could eavesdrop through the door for his
footsteps. When he was far south, it was clear to open. Strange thing is if he
alerted to the door, the other guests seemed to trigger to his comment and
follow up with remarks. Had to switch off all three lights to reach the
butcher’s key. Big Supreme busts. The purse in the small draft lobby could only
be gotten by opening the southern door. The thief this time had to be on the
far north part of his patrol not to comment. Same when closing. The other door
would set him off regardless.
Getting upstairs took a little timing in terms of the patrolling sister. She
had a stop in her patrol staring straight at the elevator shaft. I had to avoid
that. I also had the two strolling thieves to worry about. Luckily, none were
bothered considerably by the elevator gates. Most of it was straight forward, except
for that I had to enter the two southernmost rooms via the balconies. Scarlett
& Violet’s hallway door alerted them. Ophelia’s hallway door was very tough
to pick, and hers was the only doorway where the thief caught me hiding. Thus
it was necessary to come from outside. I picked it from the inside though.
Couldn’t avoid a comment from Violet picking her safe. It contained her stone
key so it couldn’t be skipped either. She didn’t mind the other safe. The
biggest problem leaping for the balconies was the patroller on the top floor.
He heard the smallest clunk of my boots. Had to make use of the “silent edges”.
Was very careful with possible alerts though. Sometimes I heard guards settling
when I didn’t even know they had given a remark in the first place, so
double-checking was a necessity.
The top floor had no guards to worry about. I left the brothel entirely and
entered the two sets of double doors leading to Oak Square.
Looting
Traversed Oak Square north. There were several key spots excellent for hiding.
Westgate Wharf had one turning swordsman to worry about. I creep-crouch-strafed
around the corner to the butcher’s gate when he faced north.
Rope arrowed up to the balcony with loot. Dropped down on the southwest corner.
This is the only way to reach the butcher’s door without 1st alerts. There is a
small ledge that softens the fall, enough to avoid getting hurt. If landing in
the dark spot (see image), it can be done without getting seen also. The
door was reached by inching from top of the ramp. Had to time the patrolling
guard when picking the lock. The butcher’s money box had to be picked in two
rounds. While waiting for the butcher and the pagan to patrol conveniently, the
butcher gave a settling remark, indicating he had alerted earlier. I got this
two times, while on the third attempt, I was clean. It could have been from
picking the money box, but I can’t remember hearing any comment. Supremers
should be aware of this. Anyway, if they met on the steps, that was good news.
As the butcher turned for his shop counter, I could sneak out the back door
before the pagan closed it. Then had to sneak very quietly to the right not to
alert the stationary burrick. Opened the gate and went to pick the barn door.
Whichever side I picked from, the stationary burrick gave a grunt, so I skipped
that loot for Supreme. Pinky found the way home by herself (she even opened the
butcher’s gate). Could fairly easily traverse the pen to Argan’s back entrance.
Cleaned the thieves’ den first. Had to follow the thief inside without blocking
any of the doors. If I opened or closed them, the bartender or the drunk lady
would comment. I also had to lighten my footsteps hugging the thief’s back.
Running while tapping the crouch key was a good method of keeping quiet while
still moving reasonably fast. In the basement the stationary thief alerted to
me opening the hidden grate. The den beyond had 835 loot. Skipping it meant a
total of 4524 loot for Supreme, 24 above the required amount. Ghosting the
treasure rooms took a bit of extra patience, but nothing more than normal
sneaking. Three of the corners in the first room had shadows, plus the hallway beyond.
The hardest thing was getting past the stationary thief’s back. He had to turn
conveniently while the others were gone.
Leaving Hobb’s Fine Wines was tough without spawning any more comments. There
was an unarmed thief doing a short patrol across from the pub’s main entrance.
He was gone for 13 seconds. In that time I had to follow the thief without
blocking the door or making any sounds, and dodge him as he turned to head
back. Although somewhat random, he usually swung to his right.
Went back to Argan’s and looted his museum without trouble. Left through the
side entrance to Clocktower Walk.
Neutralization
Entered Oak Square again and fetched my reward at Mrs. Dowson’s for plain
Ghost. Also picked her key and looted the bedroom. Stonebridge manor was
surprisingly easy to Supreme ghost. Had to time the patrolling swordsman when
picking the gate lock. The party host continued her patrols after being cured,
and alerted like a normal guard. Was a little tricky not to get seen when
shooting the holy arrow, but nothing worth reporting. Snuck eastward and
cleaned the library. Passed East End and dodged the stationary archer on
Cathedral Street.
The two zombies by the cathedral occasionally patrol so close they can be cured
with one arrow. If so, the mission can be finished with the use of only 8 water
arrows. Happily that was the case this time (see image), but I have seen
them on opposite sides of the cathedral as well. I didn’t know this was
possible, so unfortunately I picked up an unnecessary water arrow ahead of
time. They both became stationary and alert, so I cured them out of sight of
any of the three entrances. Then headed down to neutralize the sisters.
Went west to pick up the key from Basso at Westgate Wharf. This triggered the
access of more loot back at the brothel, so I had to make one final trip around
the city.
Got the necklace from Fowley’s cellar using the wheel peg from Ophelia’s
bedroom. Ascended the canal ladder at Archway’s Walk and entered the brothel
like before. Brunhilde now patrolled the hallway, but the thief was gone. Both
previous customers were gone as well. Scarlett and Violet lay dead on the floor (see
image), probably from me destroying their hearts. This made Brunhilde very
jumpy, and she occasionally remarked when seeing Scarlett’s body. This is not a
bust in any mode, as it is an unavoidable consequence of the objective (classic
comparison is the alarm in ‘Undercover’) and perfectly follows the intended
storyline. I guess you can be lucky and destroy the heart while Scarlett is in
her room, but that would be hard to estimate. I imagine you could save while in
the holy pit and destroy one heart at a time. In between each heart you could
run to the brothel and check, then adjust it accordingly. I suppose this means
you can get Violet’s stone key alert-free also. Took Brunhilde’s loot easy
enough. Left the brothel in its original state (elevator, switches, doors,
etc).
This gave me hope for Zoraide though. If she was dead, it meant my whole
Angelica-problem would go away. I went down there a.s.a.p. And there she was,
dead as a doornail! Conveniently lying in the dark doorway to her bedroom. I
thus cured Angelica and headed back to Basso.
I could mantle up the street and grab the final piece of loot. I could not,
however, enter the maintenance door without a grumble from the stationary
swordsman. I guess you could mantle the roof using stackables, but I wasn’t in
the mood. If Supreme had been at stake, I definitely would have tried. I
managed to close both gates and finish the mission.
Summary
- Had to skip the silver nugget (50) in the mech safe in the southeast. The
iron beast made a comment when opening the grate.
- The zombie baker commented on me picking his lock. A requirement to finish
the optional objective. Supreme busted early.
- Skipped the necklace (200) on the nightstand of lady’s room at Mrs. Peacock’s
for Supreme. She grumbled when I opened the door.
- Couldn’t avoid a 1st alert from the stationary swordsman in Deville’s yard
when leaving the balcony. It’s either this or leaving a rope arrow stuck in the
rafter. Both violate Supreme.
- Got two more comments from the stationary archer in the front yard when
opening and closing the nearby door to the guard tower.
- Had to turn off the 3 light switches on the brothel bottom floor to reach the
butcher’s key behind the bar counter. Supreme busts.
- Alerted Violet with an utterance picking her safe at the brothel. Supreme
bust. (Can be avoided if destroying her heart first)
- Had to skip releasing Pinky and hence not getting the 400 loot available for
Supreme. The nearby stationary burrick grunted from the lockpicks.
- Had to skip the 835 loot in the thieves’ den below Hobb’s Fine Wines for
Supreme. The stationary thief alerted when opening (and closing) the grate.
- Had an unnecessary water arrow pickup, as I didn’t know the two zombies by
the cathedral could be cured in one shot. Supreme violation.
- Got a comment from the nearby guard going for the sewer maintenance 3 door.
Last Supreme breach.
- The body discovered has got to be Brunhilde finding Scarlett in the brothel
hallway. An inescapable result of the objective, so no bust.
Klatremus' Supreme Thief Site - Walkthroughs, Loot Lists & Ghost Reports
- 02-03-2008, 02:40 AM by goldsla #165
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Forgotten Forest, part 1
FM: Forgotten
Forest, part 1 [forgottenforest1.zip]
1st Run Through
Ghost - Success
Perfect Thief - Failed
Time - 02:39:16
Loot - 4880/5150
Pockets Picked - 4/5
Backstabs - 137 Knockouts - 0
Damage dealt - 1368 Damage taken - 0
Healing taken - 0 Kills - 0 Bodies Discovered by Enemies - 0
Secrets Found - 1/1
2nd Run Through
Ghost - Success
Perfect Thief - Success
Time - 01:15:43
Loot - 5150/5150
Pockets Picked - 4/5
Backstabs - 0 Knockouts - 0
Damage dealt - 16 Damage taken - 0
Healing taken - 0 Kills - 1 Bodies Discovered by Enemies - 0
Secrets Found - 1/1
Comments:
The mission starts with a nasty, little white spider blocking your path. No
amount of creeping or crawling, hopping, jumping, walking or running works to
get by; the spider always alerts. Fortunately, the mission designer, Timon,
provided three movable boulders. Slowly, very slowly, I built a wall with those
boulders, between the spider and where I needed to go. Then, once I was safely
in shadows and out of range, I rearranged the wall to keep the spider from view
of my next destination. It took me well over a half an hour to get it right so
that I could keep that spider from alerting as I looked around. Only to find
that both doors there were locked with unpickable locks.
The immediate area, where you start the mission, is a forest outpost with
out-buildings. And most of those buildings are locked with unpickable locks. So
the first phase of the mission is a key hunt. And keys are hidden everywhere:
under rocks, under mattresses, in graves, … you get the idea. Oh, I forgot to
mention that you start the mission with your sword and blackjack, five
broadhead arrows, your lock picks, and your compass. That’s it. No water
arrows, no rope arrows, nothing else. Guards are all about the torch-lit
enclave, both patrolling and stationary.
As you progress through the mission you gain objectives. By the end, there were
13 objectives (12 not counting the usual one for Expert: Don’t kill anyone).
Halfway through the mission, the scene shifts from the forest outpost to an
underground Hammer-ghost-filled maze of an abandoned monastery and crypt. Here
you needed to find hidden switches (and one well hidden key) which allow
continued progress through the maze.
It was down there that I got the objective that allowed me to rack up all those
backstabs. You have an objective to put a candle on the grave of someone
(Constance) who had transgressed against the order. When you do so, Constance’s
“ghost” appears (more like a zombie than a ghost, but this was a mission
written in Polish, and the translator made some odd word choices. In another
case the word “lumberjack” was used when it probably would have more correct to
have used the phase “wood cutter.”). In any event, you get a wonderfully clear
new objective: “The hell with the b**ch!!! Kill the ghost of Constance.”
Finally a FM designer who makes it very clear what is wanted!
So, I thought since she looked like a zombie, maybe I could killer like one by
backstabbing her to the ground and the continuing until she exploded. The first
part of my theory worked. As soon as she materialized, I snuck up behind her.
She never knew that there was anyone around, let alone that she was in a fight
and had already lost. She went down like a ton of … well dead meat. But she did
not die or explode. So I kept hitting her on the ground. I got lots of red
fluid leakage, but I could not kill her.
Now I may not be the brightest bulb in the box, but after over 135 strikes,
even I began so suspect that another approach might be in order. I backed away
and watched her while I thought. All that came to mind was holy water. Up to
that point I had not found a single bottle of the stuff, nor had I found any
water arrows. So I left her lying there and went on a search.
Eventually I found a stash of both water arrows and 2 bottles of holy water. So
I returned to dear Constance, who was dead on her feet (she had somewhat
recovered from my earlier abuse and was standing up again, but still, not
hunting). I let her have a little holy water between the shoulder blades, and
she exploded in a most satisfactory manner.
A rather nice Easter egg is also to be found down here near Constance’s grave:
a portrait gallery of all the contributors to the mission, from the author,
Timon, all the way down to the lowliest beta tester. Very nice.
The toughest bit to ghost in the whole mission was that one, inconveniently
placed spider at the beginning. There was a sewer tunnel setup with seven
little white spiders in it, but that was a piece of cake compared to the
opening act. The guards and the lady of the house, while sensitive, did not
react unreasonably. I think that a better looter could attain Perfect Thief.
The loot is just well hidden. I was quite surprised to find out just how much I
had missed when I ended the mission. I may have to go back and look some more.
In all, this is a reasonably challenging mission to ghost. It is not
obnoxiously difficult, nor is it a piece of cake. And there a bit of grave-side
humor exhibited on the plaques placed on the sarcophagi. Some may have suffer
in translation, but most made the journey from Poland intact.
2nd Run Through Note
I'm not certain which loot I missed the 1st time through. The second time I
just played by memory, and miraculously found it all. I wonder whether there
was a reload somewhere in the first run after I had found loot which I forgot
to go back for. The 2nd run I did without any reloads. Whatever. Perfect Thief
is very possible 'cause I just did it.
Last edited by goldsla; 02-05-2008 at 04:07 PM. Reason: Update Stats For Perfect Thief
- 02-03-2008, 11:20 AM by Peter Smith #166
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Originally
Posted by Klatremus
FM: The Seven Sisters -
Night Two
- The body discovered has got to be Brunhilde finding Scarlett in the brothel
hallway. An inescapable result of the objective, so no bust.
Having a body discovered is not, per se, against the rules.
There could be many reasons for that, beyond the player's control. The creation
of the body could be against the rules, but not in this case, obviously. If you
wanted to avoid the discovery of the body to create a super-clean ghost, I
think it could be done. Scarlett spends about 25% of the time in her room. Just
keep repeating the heart destruction with various time delays from a save, then
going back there to check it, until the body is in the shadows in her room. You
might have to do Violet's heart first and check to see that Scarlett did not
see Violet's body. Not that I would play it that way.
Last edited by Peter Smith; 02-03-2008 at 11:32 AM.
- 02-03-2008, 11:45 AM by Peter Smith #167
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Originally
Posted by goldsla
FM: Dance with the
Dead (DwtD_v12.zip)
Duke Nukem definately cannot be ghosted by me. So my call is that the FM cannot
be ghosted since it canot be ghosted at its hardest level. One can still get
through other levels without alerts, but not Duke Nukem.
I would be tempted to relax the rules in this case. Duke Nukem is not intended to be the hardest skill. It is one of three completely different game play styles, each of which has three skills to chose from. Duke Nukem is a game play style that is intended to involve combat. I'd say that if you took the expert skill at any one of the other two game-play options you could claim a ghost of that portion of the matrix, still admitting that Duke Nukem failed.
- 02-03-2008, 11:56 AM by Klatremus #168
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Originally
Posted by Peter Smith
Having a body discovered is not, per se, against the rules. There could be many reasons for that, beyond the player's control. The creation of the body could be against the rules, but not in this case, obviously.
Yeah I agree, and I never considered this a bust. Just felt a
discovered body should be reported still. I also theorized on how this could be
avoided, for purists and extreme ghosters. Dunno if you read it, but it was
very similar to your suggestion (2nd paragraph under 'Neutralization' in the
report).
I am actually enough of a perfectionist to try this, had a mode been at stake.
I might go back later to attempt this "super-clean ghost". That makes
me think of another thing though. Why wasn't a body registered as discovered on
Night One? 
The
guard in Maya's house had the same patrol as her, and should technically have
seen her dead. Or perhaps that doesn't register until you get closer? Will
check it out and report back when I find the time.
Klatremus' Supreme Thief Site - Walkthroughs, Loot Lists & Ghost Reports
- 02-03-2008, 12:10 PM by Peter Smith #169
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Originally
Posted by Klatremus
That makes me think of another thing though. Why wasn't a body
registered as discovered on Night One? The
guard in Maya's house had the same patrol as her, and should technically have
seen her dead. Or perhaps that doesn't register until you get closer? Will
check it out and report back when I find the time.
I had thought of that, too, but didn't want to muddy the waters, since is was not an issue. There are some dark spots in the stairwell and the hallway. If you BJ Maya in the middle of the hallway, I think she is not seen. Not sure about Maya's path in her own room.
- 02-05-2008, 04:36 PM by goldsla #170
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Originally
Posted by Peter Smith
I would be tempted to relax the rules in this case. Duke Nukem is not intended to be the hardest skill. It is one of three completely different game play styles, each of which has three skills to chose from. Duke Nukem is a game play style that is intended to involve combat. I'd say that if you took the expert skill at any one of the other two game-play options you could claim a ghost of that portion of the matrix, still admitting that Duke Nukem failed.
While I did ghost Suicidal and Nighmare (Expert equivalent), as a bit
of a purist, I don't think I should claim success when there is a combination
that is not ghostable. To my mind, by definition, if you cannot ghost one of
the three combinations with Nightmare, then that combination is the hardest to
ghost, and a ghost success should not be claimed. I think that makes sense,
doesn't it?
In the author's reply to my posting he says
Originally
Posted by Yandros
I think Duke Nukem mode at any difficulty will not be ghostable. After you take the Icon, new AI are teleported in, some of which are placed such that I don't think it's possible to get back to the entrance without alerting them - but you're welcome to try. The best ghosting experience on this mission is probably Garrett, where some new AI are added but not placed such that escaping is impossible.
In a subsequent PM exchange with the author he said
I totally understand your interpretation, and I have no problem if my mission isn't ghostable.
So I guess I can reciprocate: I totally understand how someone could
consider ghosting Suicidal and Nighmare a ghosting success, and will have no
issues if they want to claim it. I just don't want to claim it for myself.
Besides this mission is lots more fun if you stop ghosting, break the placards,
and go after the optional objectives!
- 02-06-2008, 04:06 PM by Klatremus #171
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FM: The Seven Sisters -
Night Three
Ghost - Success
Perfect Thief - Success
Supreme Ghost - Failed (no
1st alerts though)
Perfect Supreme - Failed
Time - 2:25:58
Loot - 4010 out of 4010
Pockets Picked - 0/6
Locks Picked 10
Backstabs - 0, Knockouts - 0
Damage dealt - 0, Damage taken - 0
Healing taken - 0, Kills - 0, Bodies Discovered - 3
Secrets Found - 5/5
Consumables - 3 Moss Arrows
Comments:
Started with 1 water arrow and 1 rope arrow. Nobody to cure, only the last
three sisters to neutralize, plus loot (and the optional objective revealed
later). I’m also instructed to kill the black sister somehow. Hoped for Supreme
going in, but having busted the first two, I knew these missions weren’t
designed with that mode in mind.
Thieves’ Hideout
The courtyard had two thieves. Nothing big, just normal stealth work. The rope
ladder was dark. Cleaned the mill right away, not much to report there either. Did
the upstairs bedrooms next. The stationary thief was very edgy, easily alerting
to creaks in the wooden stairs. There were no shadows in the upstairs hallway
itself, so I had to enter the side rooms for cover. There was a pickable chest
in the first bedroom on the right. The wary thief heard the noises, so I had to
close the door. The gate key was stuck to my inventory. Took the secret bag of
spice by use of a rope arrow when the patroller had her stop. The rest was
straight forward.
Downstairs was a little trickier, but still doable. The biggest problem was
dodging Rodrigo. He alerted to his door opening or closing, so I had to follow
him without blocking the door or making noise. The female thief also overlooked
the door at one point. Rodrigo came to a halt just inside the door. Sometimes
he took a step forward before heading out again; this was not good. Other times
he would start walking again straight for the door, not noticing me. I could
pick the chest while he was gone. The wine cask’s key disappeared upon use.
Dodged Rodrigo the same way out again, waiting in the small dark nook for him
to leave (see image). Had to guess when grabbing the fine wine from the
open crate in the hall. Sometimes I picked up a worthless bottle instead, so I
just reloaded. Think the fine bottle was the backmost one. Entered the caves
using the grey key.
The first cavern was easy to traverse, just used the cave slopes to the right.
The cliff cave with the bridge was harder. The female archer looked north and
south. The patrolling thief crossed the bridge and stopped at both ends of his
route. I found a dark portion on the bridge itself, by the north railing. With
a little luck, I could reach it by creep-crouch-strafing (it proved to be a
very useful speed in this mission pack). The thief would alert with a comment
going by, so I had to get onto the outer rim of the railing itself (see
image). Now he kept quiet. To get to the secret treasure cache, I waited for
the thief to head west again, then mantled the rock and leapt across the gap.
The path’s steepness gave me trouble, as it was very hard to maintain a steady
pace. The area up to the shrubbery was visible from the male thief’s stationary
position east of the bridge, so I had to pass that portion before he returned.
The middle part wasn’t covered by either of the thieves. The lower section was
in the visible range of the archer, thus I had to wait for her to turn south.
The cave entrance was dark and the gold was mine (see image). Going back
was a little easier. Uphill the speed doesn’t bust you as often.
The inner cave had only one pickup: Serafina’s heart. However, her patrol was
in the middle of the room, in bright lights. The other thief luckily turned
away from time to time. The two support pillars to the south blocked the light
from the chandelier, and their shadows got me a little closer to Serafina. I
tried lurking in behind her to grab the heart as she turned, but couldn’t make
it without a grumble. Even the hay on the floor was too loud for her. It was
almost by accident I discovered the small shadow beside the northeastern
pillar. It wasn’t as dark as the others, but dark enough to snag the heart as
Serafina passed (see image). She gave a comment at the end of her patrol
even though I was pitch black, so I had to lean right (north) each time she
came around, to make the pillar block her view. Although it technically isn’t a
bust, the stationary thief gave a comment from seeing Serafina’s corpse. I
managed to get rid of this by making her fall behind the pillar (see
image). This was not required by any mode, but fun to accomplish nonetheless.
I used exactly the same methods to return to the starting pool.
Pagan Caves
The burrick caves had a few glowing mushrooms, but nothing dangerous. Took my
time and collected all the nuggets. Alerts are a little hard to determine from
burricks, so I always reload rather than being in doubt.
The following cave was a smidgen harder, but again nothing to worry about.
There were plenty of tree trunks to hide behind, and enough shadows. Only a few
torched areas where I had to watch out. Climbed the northwestern walkway with a
rope arrow and cleaned the inside huts. The outside patrollers could hear me
clunk my boots getting off the rope arrows, so I treaded lightly.
The inner pagan cave caused only a few problems. The loot was easily
accessible, only dodging the stationary tree-beast. I approached the eastern
doorway from the shadows to the left. The pagans didn’t alert too much, but the
patrolling tree-beast was quite wary and ended up being my greatest concern. It
patrolled north-south and gave a distinct growl as a 1st alert. Both Heather
and the patrolling archer stopped occasionally, always facing away from the
doorway. I waited just inside the hut, by the left hand side. When the moment
presented itself, I lurked out and snagged her heart (see image). The
stone key was totally unprotected. Snuck out again when I had the chance. I
couldn’t destroy the heart right away, as this alerted at least one archer and
getting out then was much harder. It wasn’t needed either. Had to rope arrow up
the big rock to the north to get out safely.
Chaos Caves
Getting to the portal was no problem. The floating spirit lit me up, but
apparently couldn’t see. At least I stood in its view as it passed, but nothing
happened. The ghosts alerted with a loud breath, similar to haunts. Grabbed the
final pieces of loot and unlocked the portal with my keys.
Stuck to the dark corners in the mermaid cave. Entered through the small tunnel
to the left and circulated the cave northward. I couldn’t make out 1st alerts
of any of the creatures in here. Maybe they don’t have any, or perhaps their
sensitivity is configured differently. Nevertheless, I could grab the black
diamond without any commotion.
Shooting the whirlwinds was another one of those tricky Ghost calls. No damage
or kills showed up in the stats. No traces were left except the moss. The stone
keys were imperative to continue the mission and obviously an intended part of
the puzzle plot. The only possible rule broken is Supreme rule #6 which says:
“...no moss arrow use is allowed.” Literally it is a bust, so I’m gonna go
ahead and call it that. However, interpreting the context of the rule, I would
say its intended purpose is to prevent using moss arrows in the traditional
sense, that is, to easier traverse loud surfaces. Whether that extends onto
other uses as well I won’t comment. Here, it constitutes part of a mandatory
puzzle. Regardless, I cannot allow myself to bend the rules “just because”.
Some missions aren’t Supremable and never intended to be. I guess this is one
of those.
The bush-beasts neither had any 1st alerts, at least that I could detect. In
any case, I ghosted them quite easily. Traversed this mossy cave northward
along the walls, grabbing the black diamond on the way. The two other tunnel
exits both lead to the same place, but the northern one had the next stone key.
I backtracked and took the southern tunnel to continue; if not, I went against
the flow of traffic (craymen and insect-beasts).
The sulfur cave could be ghosted without getting involved with any of the smoke
shadows. There was a ledge running below the top cliff that I could drop onto.
From there, I ascended the slope and leaped down to the secret cave with the
next black diamond (see image). That made four. Exiting this cave I
emerged in the catacombs.
Reaching Malvina’s lair was easy. I opened the gate to the lava cave first.
Then roped up the ledge toward the spider cages. I had to jump the rafters to
reach the grate with the next diamond. The nearby spider saw me a time or two
before I got it. Opening the gates let out all 15 spiders in full alert. It was
not from seeing me, but from a script triggered upon releasing the spiders.
They headed straight for Malvina. If they saw me along the way, I was as good
as dead. I opened only one of the cages though, as traversing the caves
afterwards was harder the more spiders there were. As they attacked Malvina, I
closed both the cage and the gate. Three yellow spiders died in the battle.
This kill follows directly from the objective, and the spiders are the only
ones who can do it (see image), so definitely no bust. I took the heart
off her corpse afterwards, and headed back through the catacombs.
As I started my descent toward the lava cave, something odd happened to one of
the smoke shadows by the main entrance (see image). It didn’t stop me from
passing undetected. The bottom cave was darkest on the left hand side upon
entry. In fact, I could sneak along the wall all the way to the lava without
getting spotted (see image). The enemies in here weren’t on high alert in
any case. Another black diamond lay in shadows on the opposite side. I left
through the other tunnel and closed both gates.
The portal was now open so I went through. The final black diamond could be
taken without lifting the boulder above. Mission pack complete!
Summary:
- Had to moss the three whirlwinds in the chaos caves. This goes against
Supreme rule #6.
- The three bodies discovered are Heather, and probably two of the spiders
fighting Malvina. No busts though.
Last edited by Klatremus; 02-07-2008 at 10:03 AM.
Klatremus' Supreme Thief Site - Walkthroughs, Loot Lists & Ghost Reports
- 02-06-2008, 05:50 PM by Peter Smith #172
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Originally
Posted by Klatremus
FM: The Seven Sisters -
Night Three
- Had to moss the three whirlwinds in the chaos caves. This goes against
Supreme rule #6. Or does it?
I thought it busted the ordinary ghost, per basic rule #2. You are kind
of killing the winds. But it doesn't count as a kill in the stats, does it? Is
this a programming error in the script, or a lucky break? I think it is quite
like a gas arrow that doesn't count as a KO. But you definitely have on your
side the fact that there is no body, no corpus delicti.
So, one can go back and forth on this. Regardless, I am happy to agree that
this is a reasonable exception and that you ghosted it. It is certainly not a
big deal to me, either way.
I was a tester on this mission and ghosted it more than once. I realized that
this area would be a problem, but I did not propose changing it because that
would have meant major design changes, which, at the time, were not being
entertained. I kind of liked having to figure that out. And I was waiting to
see how you would interpret it.
You can argue that Supreme is busted by rule number 6, but the situation is
different.
- 02-06-2008, 08:10 PM by Klatremus #173
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Originally
Posted by Peter Smith
I think it is quite like a gas arrow that doesn't count as a KO. But
you definitely have on your side the fact that there is no body, no corpus
delicti.
You can argue that Supreme is busted by rule number 6, but the situation is
different.
Originally, I thought it might be considered property damage, as the
whirlwinds were "objects" rather than living creatures (no
damage/kills). But reading the 'Commentary and Interpretation of Ghost Rules' I
realized it only applies if there is visible damage or the condition of an
object has noticeably changed, which is not the case here.
As for Supreme rule #6, if you mean it is different because the arrow isn't
used for its intended purpose and that's the only reason for the rule being
composed in the first place, then I can tend to agree. But I won't ok it unless
one of the mode's creators agrees, or there exists an agreement by the
consensus of the ghosting community.
Last edited by Klatremus; 02-07-2008 at 09:34 AM.
Klatremus' Supreme Thief Site - Walkthroughs, Loot Lists & Ghost Reports
- 02-10-2008, 08:21 PM by Klatremus #174
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T2X: Shadows of the Metal Age 1-3
Mission 1 - Unexpected Shelter
Ghost - Failed
Perfect Thief - N/A
Supreme Ghost - Failed
Perfect Supreme - N/A
Time - 28:09
Loot - None
Pockets Picked - None
Locks Picked None
Backstabs - 0, Knockouts - 0
Damage dealt - 0, Damage taken - 0
Healing taken - 0, Kills - 0, Bodies Discovered - 0
Secrets Found - 1/1
Consumables - None
Decided to post the results of my T2X ghost run from a while back. They've been
at my site since then, but putting them in their proper thread also.
Comments:
There isn’t much to say about the introductory mission other than it sets up
the story nicely. It took place even before Zaya became a thief and not even
the light gem was functional, which I think was a good touch. The mission
contained no loot, so Perfect Thief and Perfect Supreme weren’t available.
Unfortunately, Ghost was busted when the thugs saw me. Originally I thought
this was a scripted proximity trigger. I guess it is too, but the thugs
attacked Kedar first, then came looking for me, and since Zaya's gem was
non-functional they caught me quite fast. Looking back, I agree with Peter
Smith (see post below) that this is a definite bust. Two other places where one
might stumble. First, running from the thugs without getting hurt could be a
challenge. Dodging the archer’s arrows was the worst. I leaped sideways while
sprinting, that did the trick. Inside the haunted mansion all I did was pick up
the basement key and unlock the door to the wine cellar. The key disappeared so
no need to place it back.
Second, the traps were a problem. I had to flip a red lever to stop some
vertical arrows from puncturing me. It couldn’t be flipped back. One could
traverse across the spears by using crates, but these would have to be put
back, so that was a bust anyway. Also, three statues flung blades at me as I
ventured further down the hallways. Yes I know the Supreme rules refer to traps
set off by Garrett, but I figured this applies to Zaya as well. The rest was a
piece of cake. Sadly, this means the first mission is unghostable.
Summary:
- The thugs saw and attacked me in the ambush by the gate. Ghost bust.
- Unable to flip back the red lever in the secret area below the basement.
Busts Supreme.
- 3 statues tried to kill me as I traveled through the lower hallways. More
busts.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Mission 2 - The Trials That Shape Us
Ghost - Success
Perfect Thief - Failed
Supreme Ghost - Success
Perfect Supreme - Failed
Time - 53:32
Loot - 1489/1490
Pockets Picked - 4/5
Locks Picked - 5
Backstabs - 0, Knockouts - 0
Damage dealt - 0, Damage taken - 0
Healing taken - 0, Kills - 0, Bodies Discovered - 0
Secrets Found - 3/3
Consumables - None
Comments:
Entered the museum through the roof chute. Dropping down through the broken
window was possible by the use of a vine arrow, but left me more exposed.
Picking the balcony door required relocking and an unnecessary museum key grab.
Everybody will see me as picky there, but I chose the chute anyways, more
thief-like. Left the door open to get back out the same way later. The 2nd
floor posed few problems. Just sneaking around timing patrols. Some areas had
guards on lower floors able to spot me.
Entered the 1st floor in the city fathers area. The guard there seemed more
suspicious than others, and took some very slow movement to pass, but in the
end nothing too tricky. Moved through the room behind him grabbing the urn on
the way. I had to skip 1 gold worth of loot from the text/documents section;
breaking the glass frame obviously counts as property damage. The roaming man
here even gave a comment upon inspection. Used the secret passage beside the
staircase down to the basement. The Supreme rules prevented me from turning off
watchers or security systems, so opening the gates to grab the tome was strictly
speaking a bust. However, these are just physical barriers that open and close,
they’re not electrical systems or sensory mechanisms that I believe the rules
are referring to. This is even more obvious when the rules also mention
watchers, as these are sensory machines counting as an AI. I mean, if the
plaque by the lever had said ‘Foyer Gates’, nobody would have argued this to be
a bust. An example of a clear bust following the rules’ purpose would be
turning off the sound alarm system at the museum in Calendra’s Legacy in order
to grab the Baerulian Diamond. I dunno...people might disagree with me here,
but I consider Supreme still intact.
The hardest part on the 1st floor was the guard just beyond the commons office
area. He guarded the staircase, a piece of loot and the key to the upstairs
office. He was stationary, but turned randomly to face either towards or away
from the stairs. Whenever he turned away I started to move. Realized quickly
that normal walking is the fastest way without alerting him. Lifted the key and
the jar on my way past and hid in the corner after the second stair portion.
The pillars were no good for hiding, as the guard could see me through them.
The key disappeared upon usage, which made the trip back a lot easier, not having
to drop it by his feet. I dropped down from the stairs beside the small table
and walked out like before. This whole sequence relies on the guard staying in
the captured position while you’re on the move. Sometimes he shifted after 5
seconds and at other times he went half a minute without turning.
The rest was a charm, just cleaning up the first floor.
Summary:
- Breaking the window to grab the last 1 loot in the display area is not
allowed, so I skipped it.
- Had to turn off the “security system” to grab the tome. Supreme bust?…I don’t
think so.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Mission 3 - While the City Sleeps
Ghost - Success
Perfect Thief - Success
Supreme Ghost - Success
Perfect Supreme - Failed
Time - 1:24:18
Loot - 1738/1738 (Supreme: 1703)
Pockets Picked - 3/4
Locks Picked - 9
Backstabs - 0, Knockouts - 0
Damage dealt - 0, Damage taken - 0
Healing taken - 0, Kills - 0, Bodies Discovered - 1
Secrets Found - 5/5
Consumables - None
Comments:
Three ways existed into Market District. I could sneak through the main gates
when the guards were off looking for coffee. This left the gates open however.
The sewers were another alternative. The key was obtainable from the house above
the canal in the north. Two manholes led to the district. From the closest I
emerged nearby the gates; this was a practical option. If you do this, be sure
not to have triggered the events outside the main gate, as this gives you one
more guard to deal with, and will bust Supreme emerging from the sewer. The
second manhole can only be reached using a water arrow creating an ice floe,
and busts Supreme. However, utilizing the sewers require picking the key and
placing it back, so it’s not the most Supreme way. I rather left the house
through the window (see image) and dropped down onto the pipes to the
south.
I simply loved this place. A perfect city mission! Lots of houses to enter and
alternate routes to move around by, and heaps of hidden objects waiting to be
discovered. Took the nugget from the chest across the canal by doing a running
jump from the wooden roof. Had to vine arrow up to the top roof to obtain the
golden goblet (see image). The archer was out of sight for some time and I
could easily ascend the line while he was gone. From here I jumped east to the
adjacent balcony. Landing in a mantle was the best way to avoid damage and
alerts. I followed the ledge around the corner to the small opening into Fine
Dining’s attic. From the balcony on the other side I could (with a couple of
sneaky hops, see image) sneak my way into Anvil of Crom. This building was
connected to Fine Dining’s second floor and upstairs Grindall’s Arms and Armor.
I was able to loot these establishments completely undisturbed. I waited with
the secret entrance to Anvil of Crom until cleaning out Ralkavian’s Family
Jewels across the street. I was able to jump both ways between the window and
the ledge without alerting guards below. The area was much more tense after the
thieves robbing Anvil of Crom had been killed, thus it was to my preference to
get this part of town done with before looting the shop.
South past the main gate I vine arrowed up to the loft window. Grabbed the loot
from the attics and balconies up here, and cleaned out the hammerite craft
without much trouble. Didn’t need to create the lever in the smelting area; the
gate to Kedar’s shop can be opened without it. Picked up more loot going south.
The key was at the locksmith’s and turning off the lights inside to fool the
watcher was against Supreme rules. I hid in the doorway darkness and switched
off the light through the opened door. Could easily grab what I needed, didn’t
even have to pull the security lever. Cleaned the winery and the fishmonger’s
thereafter.
I entered the Market Square by frobbing the inside lever. This wasn’t too hard;
I just leaned in towards the gate. Emptied the entire market quick enough, and
grabbed the scroll at Kedar’s. The rug at Rathran’s was the last piece of loot.
Made my way out of Market District afterwards.
Summary:
- Had to skip the locksmith’s for Supreme. The watcher alerted and switching off
the light isn’t allowed.
- The body discovered is one of the swordsmen killed by the thieves that robbed
the Anvil of Crom. Had nothing to do with me.
Last edited by Klatremus; 05-07-2008 at 09:09 PM. Reason: Typo
Klatremus' Supreme Thief Site - Walkthroughs, Loot Lists & Ghost Reports
- 02-10-2008, 10:26 PM by Peter Smith #175
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T2X Mission 1
Originally
Posted by Klatremus
Their triggered alert and resulting attacks were in-game scripts and not a bust
That was not my impression. Their alert may have been triggered by a
boundary, but they were definitely chasing me. In spades. This is
not at all like Life of the Party. In LotP you trigger a fight between two
guards (potentially violating the rule not to start a melee) by crossing a
line. But they never see you or hear you, and you do not interact with them in
any way, so it can be argued that you couldn't have started it. It is like a
random event with you just passing through. That is the precedent.
If you count T2X Mission 1 as a success, then any time a guard is alerted by
your being in a particular location, even if they see you, must be counted as a
success. I draw the line at their noticing you. If they do notice you,
regardless of the cause, I think you are busted.
Continuing in the trigger theme, I say it is not a bust if you are completely
hidden and a guard goes into a brief search at one point on a patrol. You watch
him. He does the same thing at the same place every time. He never sees you.
That is obviously a programmed alert, not an alert caused by you. Not a bust.
In the case of T2X, if you could lie in hiding and let the programmed alert
pass, then sneak in without being noticed, that would be a success. I don't
think you can do that. So I say T2X M1 is a definite bust.
I think you can be clean in the rest of the series, as I recall.